200kg bench - would you believe this/possible without AAS?

hmmmm...yet to see it in my area and belonged to 60% of the gyms in portsmouth at some point

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Aaron Hallett


hmmmm...yet to see it in my area and belonged to 60% of the gyms in portsmouth at some point

Exactly.
 
The “average” person?
 
No way.

MT All Round Member of the Year

2011

Hugh_Jackman

Pretty much all the best lifters lift equipped anyway. So once again the records aren't always the clear picture. Also we're not talking about paused here really, we're talking more touch and go in the gym lift, big difference.

 
I posted unequipped record. Even 'touch and go' isn't going to move this from being a fairly huge weight to move, to something every Tom, Dick and Harry can do if they put their mind to it - like you say, the 'average' man.
 
 
Z - good point - I don't think its particularly plausible for 95-99% of the population to ever achieve this naturally, with the addition of AAS, you're probably only going to improve that by a few percent.

Udos Choice | MWC Comp Journal

jack5r


I am well aware that muscle, fat, water and glycogen weight are all variables which effect strength. How many people under 6 ft have benched 200kg? Also why stop at 200kg, could the average man bench 220 or 250 with enough deadication?

What your saying is as redicules as saying the average man can run a sub 10 seconds 100m with enough 'dedication' because i know of one guy who can.

Sprinting is totally different though for one sub 10 is WAYYYY better than a 200kg bench. You have a shorter period to achieve goals in sprinting and it's more talent dependent than lifting.
 
Height really isn't that big of a deal in bench press, short and stocky is actually better. Bloke mentioned in this thread Rob Palmer who is about 5ft 6 and 85kg has benched 200kg. Lots of blokes under 6ft have benched over 200kg on Sugden. Powerlifting is actually suited to the shorter guys, strongman is where height becomes an advantage.
 
250kg raw bench is going into world class territory so totally different to 200kg.
 
Most people aren't dedicated to the cause enough to ever achieve it, down to time constraints, no real goal of doing it, vanity reasons....the list goes on.
 
I think if lifters on here read weightlifters journals or Tom Martins journal, Mark Clegg and realised what they did, trained with strength goals and dedication they'd actually surprise themselves what is possible. 

Aaron Hallett


hmmmm...yet to see it in my area and belonged to 60% of the gyms in portsmouth at some point

Yes but how many truly dedicated lifters is there in that area? that don't care about fat gains or hitting weight for their specific weight group, have got the time to train twice a day, the list goes on.
 
Only very few people are actually totally dedicated to lifting the most they can. 
 
There is minimal money in powerlifting and it will stay that way.

portsmouth isnt that big and i have trained in the leading gyms for powerlifting/bodybuilding over the years, only guy i see bench 210kg was juiced to the gills.
 
heaviest natty i have seen was 180kg at a push

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Hugh_Jackman

Pretty much all the best lifters lift equipped anyway. So once again the records aren't always the clear picture. Also we're not talking about paused here really, we're talking more touch and go in the gym lift, big difference.

I posted unequipped record. Even 'touch and go' isn't going to move this from being a fairly huge weight to move, to something every Tom, Dick and Harry can do if they put their mind to it - like you say, the 'average' man.


Z - good point - I don't think its particularly plausible for 95-99% of the population to ever achieve this naturally, with the addition of AAS, you're probably only going to improve that by a few percent.

I didn't say every Tom, Dick and Harry. I said average and above genetics. Some people really are complete twigs and don't stand a chance. Likewise some people are actual genetic freaks and would achieve it relatively easy.
 
The guy that bumped this threads, his mate proves this. There is a video of him doing it. He's not a genetic freak, he's just dedicated to the cause. He's your average bloke that had a goal and took him a decade to achieve it. Thing with lifting you can start at 15 and still be getting stronger at 40. That's 25 years you get to improve your strength. 

Average = Tom, Dick, or Harry - they are the 'average' guys - but semantics aside (!) I still don't buy what you're saying.
 
Funnily I have a different opinion on the quality physique that natural guys can achieve than most on here - but a good physique can be pretty independant of weight moved.
 
Anyway, this is an obvious 'agree to disagree' situation, as there is no way to prove one way or the other, and this is just going to turn into a pile of nonsense.
 
Congrats to the lad hitting the 200 - if anyone else on here knows another natural guy pushing 200, get a vid, I'm guessing as you only have to be average to achieve this, we'll be innundated by vids...

Udos Choice | MWC Comp Journal

No because like I was saying, virtually no one is truly dedicated to the cause. 
 
Bodybuilding is totally different to powerlifting.....one is basically subjective of the way you look, powerlfiting is actually a sport where you either do it or you don't.
 
Also steroids have a much bigger effect on bodybuilders than powerlifters when it comes to what you can achieve.

Didn't someon actually post that gear dosn't effect strength that much?
 
Anywhoo agree to def disagree here.
 
Off course if Hugh could suggest a rough % of the male population that could bench 200 if they were dedicated enough anmd could train full time to do it then maybe that'd help?

If trained from say 17 and pure strength aims, don't care about getting fat, do prehab work to prevent injuries, get lottery funding to do it so can do it full time, get good gym and good knowledge. I'd say about 60% of males could do it, maybe more.
 
But virtually no one is prepared to do it because there is virtually no financial rewards in powerlfiting and definitely not for benching 200kg. Hence why virtually no one can be bothered to put the dedication in. Plus people have jobs and familes so time restraints.
 
The main part is consistent training and being prepared to eat loads and get heavy. Drinking lots of full fat milk would come in handy, a gallon of that a day for a decade and you'll put on weight.

Ive seen one natural (so he claimed) do 205kgs.  but he was competitive strongman 22 stone.  also seen an ex mr universe do 200kgs raw (obvo juiced).  thats 2 people out of 1000's ive come into contact with ovr the years.  so i think 60% is a bit off..  everyone can say if this if that but facts are facts.

This is quite laughable. Iain has posted with details of powerlifters not lifting 200kg, so people who train specifically for benching (as well as squat and deadlift obviously) and states roughly .1% can bench 200kg. So based on Some semblance of fact.

Hugh states an average guy can bench 200kg with the caveat that they effectively dedicate their lives to achieving this and based on only 3 people who have done this (Tom, Mark, guy in vid) it's feasible for average males?

You can't extrapolate the achievements of a handful of guys to the rest of the average males in the world. Also your hypothesis that it's achievable, it's just that people don't have the inclination or dedication to do it is such a cop out. I think the only person who thinks it's possible is you, Hugh. But you can't be proved wrong because for every make that CAN'T bench 200kg (and there are 1000's), well, it's just because they don't want to invest time and effort into it isn't it. I mean it can't be because an average, drug free man benching 200kg is virtually unheard of......

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Hugh_Jackman

You bring up training like a full time athlete and this is my point. With the right dedication, a long time frame and not caring about your weight an average person can bench 200kg.

 
Nah rubbish
 

• People hit mental/physical plateaus and/or get injured.
• Once an average guy has exhausted the majority of their natural gains in a year or two on a dedicated training program, they would simply lose interest/pick up injuries.
• People who are naturally strong prove their aptitude for strength very quickly, in much the same way that someone who can run fast, quickly proves their superiority. 
• The naturally strong are the people who have the motivation to improve, even in the face of adversity (read, plateaus/injuries).
• Your average guy isn't that strong and would soon lose interest and be off doing something they are good at.

DS

I would estimate less than 10% could ever bench 200KG even if they had unlimited access to gear etc. Without gear I would guess 1% or below.
 
Covert to old skool and that 440LBS, which IMO is a fcuking lot of metal! lol
 
Bring the weight dont to 136KG (300LBS) and its a different ball game all together and the figures would increase greatly, even though 300LBS natural is a big achivement.
 
But the jump between 300 and 440LBS is massive.
 
 

Life is not about the chapters....Its about the book.

Hugh what is your bench max?
 
 

Countdown has begun....

The Guvnor


Hugh what is your bench max?

110kg....but I've been inured for last 4 months(still can bench though). But I'm not dedicated at all to bench press. I'm 6ft and 170lbs, I'm a sprinter and my goal is to be light as possible while having a big powerclean. Plus only been training weights 18 months and am suited to deadlifting more.
 
If for the next decade I decided to drink a gallon of milk a day and train bench 3x a week, get to say 120kg fat, I know I'd bench 200kg as long as I don't suffer any major shoulder injuries. 
 
There is examples of people doing it on the internet, the guy who bumped this threads mate is a good example.
 
Virtually no people in this country are dedicated to powerlifting and lift twice a day, the funding or financial rewards just isn't there. Strongman is way better financially than powerlifting and all our top guys work regular jobs in strongman.
 
Like I've said though, the dedicated will always be passed off as genetic freaks.
 
Doing a 5 day split and training for hypertrophy doesn't class as dedicated when talking about strength gains.
 
Watch the Pat Mendez video's and then watch his interview talking about how he hates his training. Read Tom Martins Journal on Sugden, these guys are squatting like 12-16 times a week heavy. Brian Siders trains similar, so do pretty much all weightlifters(but they get funding due to being olympic sports).

Sorry Hugh - I like you mate but you are wrong. Don't take offence.
 
You don't know that you could get to 200kg much less 180kg or even 140kg.
 
You assume you could but have a long list of reasons why it is not possible.
 
It is very easy to find a reason why something is not possible.
 
I've benched 200kg + on many, many occasions and therefore feel I have a right to make a comment on the subject.
 
I even did 5 at 200kg once and did 200kg as a single on incline as well.
 
http://www.muscletalk.co....ch-Press-m2296214.aspx
 
If I find my 14 week run up to the 501 bench I will post it.
 
If any male worked really hard then he would definitely get 100kg. Start going to 140kg and some people are just not going to make it this far no matter how much time or effort they put it.
 
It's like saying anyone can jump 2 metres on the high jump or throw a javelin 60 metres - it's just not that simple.
 
People are predisposed in certain areas.
 
My best deadlift is/was 190kg ish. Squat 230-240kg for 3 reps. Did these at 215lbs but bench of 227.5kg was at 270ish lbs.
 
People think I am lying about the above - surprisingly not about the bench but about my suck as$ deadlift!
 
Could I get back to a 200kg bench? Not sure.
 
Last night a top set of 150kg for 3 reps was a struggle.
 
180kg yes but 200kg not so sure - would my shoulders take the beating etc.
 
To conclude 100kg yes, 140kg not likely, 180kg no chance, 200kg - even less of a chance.

Countdown has begun....

This:

The Guvnor

Sorry Hugh - I like you mate but you are wrong. Don't take offence.

and this:

The Guvnor

To conclude 100kg yes, 140kg not likely, 180kg no chance, 200kg - even less of a chance.

Udos Choice | MWC Comp Journal

Yeah but the main factor with you is obviously weight....it's not surprising you was 270lbs when  you did it. Most people aren't prepared to go to 270lbs because they train for vanity reasons. Obviously training consistently and smartly is a huge factor, but the weight you are has such a huge bearing on bench.
 
But like I said all along, no dedicated person will ever be classed as average.
 
I do see people's points though and am going to stop the discussion because I am just repeating myself and probably boring most.
 
Quick question, why do the bench only guys only do squats to improve bench and not really deadlift, is it to do with the leg drive phase of bench press? saying that the genetically gifted benchers are usually crap deadlifters, it's what makes Savickas and Kaz so amazing.

hugh you are talking rubbish

sivvy1


hugh you are talking rubbish

Well I'd put your good benching down to having no fear of getting fat, rather than you being a genetic freak. 
 
Plus you managed a great bench by a young age and natural. With 15 years of heavy lifting and eating, I'm sure other could achieve great things.

in the drug tested competitions, which are obviosuly populated by people who train to be better powerlifters, a 200kg bench is exceptional
 
if you took 10 random untrained guys, you couldnt say that 6 of them would definately bench 200kg, they could drink all the milk they could lay there hands on, but its just not going to happen for most people
 
btw, i was fat when i started lifting so dont really see what difference that makes to my bench improvements, certainly couldnt say its because i got fat as i was always fat


 
 
 

Cut the bodyfat and see how it effets your bench then? notice a few guys on sugden went on cuts, bench effected massively, deadlift not....it was one of the Sam's....big or fat can't remember. Notice it with others as well.
 
Extra weight helps you lots in bench press. Your bench press while overall impressive, compared to people your weight it's not that impressive. I think if more people was prepared to go to your weight, you'd get more people doing the big bench presses.

i dont think you coudl get to 140kg and bench 180kg, not gonna happen
 
when i first benched 140kg in comp i was 138kg, and 140kg when i benched 190kg
 
so that 50kg increase in bench was from 2kg gain in bodyweight?

Cut down to 110kg and see what your bench is then....bet you it goes down a lot. 
 
Your CNS would be more tuned as well due to more training etc....weight has a big bearing on bench press.

what is your point?
 
heavier people are generally stronger than lighter people? (obviously otherwise you wouldn't have weight categories)
 
fat people are stronger than lean people? (load of ****e)
 
if you loose wight your lifts will probably go down? (obviously)
 
are you saying if i wasn't fat i wouldn't have benched 190, or if i wasn't heavy i wouldn't have benched 190?
 
 
do you not think if you took a sample of guys and trained them to bench 200kg, the successful ones would be the biggest (thickest set, large joints etc)?
 
 
fat sam benched 190 at 110 or so and 180 at 130 or so and has since done 200 at 118 or so iirc, but isnt natural so is irrelevant to this thread
 
 
 
 

So you agree heavier people are stronger than lighter people....or that it is an advantage. Yet you say fat makes no difference. I forgot fat has no weight, you seem to have all the answers though.
 
And no if you was lean you wouldn't bench 190kg, the extra weight(from fat) helps you lift more, due to making you heavier, which you agree makes you stronger.

Hugh_Jackman


Yeah but the main factor with you is obviously weight....it's not surprising you was 270lbs when  you did it. Most people aren't prepared to go to 270lbs because they train for vanity reasons. Obviously training consistently and smartly is a huge factor, but the weight you are has such a huge bearing on bench.

But like I said all along, no dedicated person will ever be classed as average.

 
I am 6ft3ish so 270 is not overly heavy.
 
I was lighter when doing the other lifts as I was just finished rowing or even still doing a small bit - so lots of Cardio.
 
I think when I was doing the squats I was probably benching 140 for reps and single around the 180 mark but would have to check.
 
I was training just once a week as well for the 12-14 week run in. Is once a week good or bad?
 
When say doing the other lifts like 200 x 5 and followed this up with 180 x 14 I was under 270 perhaps 260 only. I could have been in the low to mid 250's when doing the 200kg incline. At the time my weight would alter by as much as 7lbs during the day.
 
I am not denying that if I was 220 I'd not have managed the 501. I just checked I was a mere 268 on the day I did this lift which happened on the 20-09-03.

Countdown has begun....

you can never know for certain if anyone is completely natural, and has been throughout their training

Bench 180
clean 130
dead 270 raw at 95kg

Hugh_Jackman

 I'm a sprinter 

 
Lets stick to something you may know something about.
 

• What is your best time at the 100M?
• What do you consider at average guy could achieve in the 100M, assuming they dedicated 10 years of their life to training and getting skinny?

 
DS
 

GavTheOne

you can never know for certain if anyone is completely natural, and has been throughout their training

 
I agree 100% mate - only the person themselves knows.
 
I'm natural but I only ever through that about if I was trying to win a going nowhere argument online!
 
What does Louie Simmons say - he has a bottle of test on a bench shirt under a bar and has yet to see it lift anything!

Countdown has begun....

Hugh_Jackman


So you agree heavier people are stronger than lighter people....or that it is an advantage. Yet you say fat makes no difference. I forgot fat has no weight, you seem to have all the answers though.

And no if you was lean you wouldn't bench 190kg, the extra weight(from fat) helps you lift more, due to making you heavier, which you agree makes you stronger.

 
so what made my bench go from 140 to 190 when my weight stayed roughly the same?

sivvy1

Hugh_Jackman


So you agree heavier people are stronger than lighter people....or that it is an advantage. Yet you say fat makes no difference. I forgot fat has no weight, you seem to have all the answers though.

And no if you was lean you wouldn't bench 190kg, the extra weight(from fat) helps you lift more, due to making you heavier, which you agree makes you stronger.

so what made my bench go from 140 to 190 when my weight stayed roughly the same?

 
   Was it a bench shirt   ?
 
      *runs and hides*  
 
      only joking ! 

  "Been on HMB three weeks , Feels like Deca" - Bill Phillips  (Man who sold HMB)

i didnt say fat makes no difference, i said weight makes a difference, not just fat, but mass of any description

Hugh, 2 things:
1) progress is not linear
2) the law of diminishing returns

Let's say average Joe started training and after 12 weeks managed a 80kg 1RM. His first bench attempt was 40kg but with CNS adaptation increased to 80kg. So a 100% increase. In 12 weeks his progress will be far less, maybe another 20kg.12 weeks later he may increase by another 5-10kg.

So as the weeks go by the increase in weight lifted gets smaller and smaller. Look at IainK's deadlift pb thread. It's been something like a year for a very meagre 2.5kg increase.
This is the reality. You reach your limit rather quickly then further gains take a lot of time irrespective of how dedicated your training is, how frequently you train or how much milk you drink.

Obviously if you are predisposed to benching you might start with a massive bench so the increase to 200kg would be smaller, but we're talking average males so need to bear in mind the 1RM of an average male is around 60kg. Therefore a 300%+ increase is far from realistic.

I'm not sure how you still think average males benching 200kg is in any way feasible?

"They are quite possibly the most sorry bunch of socially challenged and boarderline mentally ill reprobates to have ever attracted such a like-minded following of keyboard warrior wannabes." Unknown

Give it up Hugh...

MT All Round Member of the Year

2011

Reborn


Give it up Hugh...

I have! hence the 21 hours lapsed between your post and the post previous. 

So you admit you're wrong then..good news.

:-P

MT All Round Member of the Year

2011

Lol, I posted in this thread back in 2009 I was a genuine natural 200kg benchpresser - not to Pling standards although I was given a wildcard invite to the then top tested PLing fed to compete at their world championships due to my benching at the gym of the then federation's secretary. At 18stone plus I regularly benched 180-190kg for 12-15 reps and did a double with 235kg (touch and go) back in the late 80's.
 
I only really wanted to be a BBer and trained for that when I lost all my blubber to compete I lost a great deal of strength make of that what you will.
I don't think too many natural trainers will ever reach a 200kg bench. To put it into perspective a good friend of mine was one of the Uk's greatest ever benchers, we were talking about this type of subject his best raw competition bench assisted at mid heavy was 250-252.5kg (can't quite remember now which) he said totally naturally he would have been somewhat lighter and at a guess believes he could have posted a natural 180-190kg competition bench so there's a good comparison of one of Uk and Europes top (at the time) PLers'