Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

mick_the_brick


Jeeezzz.... for the price I would say the majority of trainers are better off concentrating on the rest of their diet.

For the average trainer I can't honestly seeing it making that much difference IMO

Possibly, and I did make this point in my last couple of sentences in the article

James Collier
MT Co-Owner & Nutrition Consultant

mick_the_brick


James - just a thought but are insulin levels not already raised after training??

Yes, but some people wish to raise them further, hence why they consume high glycaemic carbs.

drewsky


Good read James

I've used it with athletes with large training loads to good effect. I used to typically use a 50:50 WPH and CPH in folk's peri training shakes in Aus where it is fairly easy to get hold of and have used it with a couple of groups over here.

When there was a discernable effect, recovery seemed a tiny bit better and incidence of colds etc lower. This wasn't by any means across the board and this in groups/people who are getting a lot of things right already though, it's certainly no miracle worker.

Various BB'er types are using this and leucine with the Dave Barr type protein pulsing protocols. Don't know if that is worth the effort though.

My flavour recommendation is lemon and lime which seems to compete for the bitter sensors on your tongue

TBH mate, I didn't realise CPH had been around that long - I only came across it 6 months ago.

I can't see any marker factors really giving us any difference TBH, but like I summed up the article, there is still some worth with this supplement.

dazc


i tried this, its very foul tasting!

i think it would need some of the very strong flavourings such as a berry blast or similar using for things like cee to make it easily drinkable, i found myself gagging after drinking it, which is never good.

mobster, weird you mention aminos tasting foul, i have them in my training drink, and i dont mind the taste!

Quoting others, I've never had them. But I have used CEE and could stomach that so it's a very individual thing.

http://www.wheyconsortium.co.uk

2x Grip Champ ('06/'08) and now European Grip champion for '08!
My Grip book - click here and buy one

your a better man than i! CEE had me beat! lol

bicep reattatchment surgery recovery journal
no shows this year :-(

Thanks for your replies James :)

Head Anabolic Mod @ http://www.ugm.org.uk  

James


I have put together a new article regarding casein hydrolysate:

Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

You can view it through the Supplement Articles link on the right ---------------->

Or directly here

Please post comments and queries below

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Reflex® Radio - "The Soundtrack to Your Health & Fitness"
http://www.reflex-nutrition.com/reflex_radio.php

Yes James, I used to get it from Dr B at Myopure, who has been providing a bulk service in Aus since way before Myprotein and the like.

I should add I used or use this mostly with endurance athletes.

Registered Nutritionist
NSCA Strength & Conditioning Coach

REFLEX

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Lack of evidence?

Sorry to pin your down but do you mean 'lack of evidence' that CPH could be considered more useful to trainees/athletes than WPH or that there is a lack of evidence that CPH is of worth for the athlete/trainee.

If the former I can see why a company could be reticent to expand operations on the basis of this, if it is the second then I would encourage you to look at the literature again.

Perhaps you mean lack of good evidence?

REFLEX

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Whether it does or not, one recent paper cited once does not equal 'scientifically proven'. There's a greater body of evidence for the efficacy of CPH than one paper for example.

There's obviously more work out there on WPH and insulin but you say 'here is the [very recent] study' and quote exact figures from it, but quote a lack of evidence for CPH, so again I don't undertand what you're basing your first statement regarding CPH and evidence on?

Be interesting to know.

Cheers.

Registered Nutritionist
NSCA Strength & Conditioning Coach

In their defence James himself said it 'might' have some use.  Based on the arguments thus far and one of the other members comments I'd say there is not enough to say it's worth adding (it's expensive, tastes foul and MIGHT work / be of some use).

http://www.wheyconsortium.co.uk

2x Grip Champ ('06/'08) and now European Grip champion for '08!
My Grip book - click here and buy one

Drew Price

REFLEX

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Lack of evidence?

Sorry to pin your down but do you mean 'lack of evidence' that CPH could be considered more useful to trainees/athletes than WPH or that there is a lack of evidence that CPH is of worth for the athlete/trainee.

If the former I can see why a company could be reticent to expand operations on the basis of this, if it is the second then I would encourage you to look at the literature again.

Perhaps you mean lack of good evidence?

REFLEX

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Whether it does or not, one recent paper cited once does not equal 'scientifically proven'. There's a greater body of evidence for the efficacy of CPH than one paper for example.

There's obviously more work out there on WPH and insulin but you say 'here is the [very recent] study' and quote exact figures from it, but quote a lack of evidence for CPH, so again I don't undertand what you're basing your first statement regarding CPH and evidence on?

Be interesting to know.

Cheers.

Drew,

I'll be more specific.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

Reflex® Radio - "The Soundtrack to Your Health & Fitness"
http://www.reflex-nutrition.com/reflex_radio.php

Cheers for the response,

actually, I'd disagree that there isn't any evidence of CPH > WPH, in fact, clearly there is.

Whether or not there is enough quality evidence, well I wouldn't want to make a large capital investment off the back of what's around at the moment.

Certainly at least on paper they both have their advantages which is why I generally combine them in peri training nutrition if I use them at all.

Thanks again.

Registered Nutritionist
NSCA Strength & Conditioning Coach

Thanks for posting Reflex and Drew.

In response:

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

Well, as you pointed out this is a question.  I was hoping my concluding 2 paragraphs summed my feelings up ok.  Have a read and you'll see my thoughts.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Scientific evidence is a term which is very broad.  I'd say there's more scientific evidence for CPH than loads of other supplements, including some you sell.

And the term 'scientifically proven' is not one I like to use, because in science little is 'proven'; more 'evidence for'.

I didn't see that one study, no.  But does one study make the evidence conclusive?  Definitely not, and I made the point about evidence in my article.  Like Drew says, sure there's lack of good evidence, I agree.

Nevertheless, I wrote this article for information for readers to arm themselves with more knowledge when purchasing proteins.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

You'll never find proof for anything, especially for supplements.  I agree though, the evidence is weak.  But people should be able to make up their own minds.  There is theory though, and that's a hell of a lot more than there is for a bulk of other supplements.

James Collier
MT Co-Owner & Nutrition Consultant

Love the debate. Makes for very interesting reading!!

Good read, however it seems like it will taste disgusting and is very pricey so personally will jsut stick with standard whey.

Still some interesting stuff to read, learnt a couple of things at least

My journal, with pics.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/tm.aspx?m=3546471

James


Thanks for posting Reflex and Drew.

In response:

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

Well, as you pointed out this is a question.  I was hoping my concluding 2 paragraphs summed my feelings up ok.  Have a read and you'll see my thoughts.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Scientific evidence is a term which is very broad.  I'd say there's more scientific evidence for CPH than loads of other supplements, including some you sell.

And the term 'scientifically proven' is not one I like to use, because in science little is 'proven'; more 'evidence for'.

I didn't see that one study, no.  But does one study make the evidence conclusive?  Definitely not, and I made the point about evidence in my article.  Like Drew says, sure there's lack of good evidence, I agree.

Nevertheless, I wrote this article for information for readers to arm themselves with more knowledge when purchasing proteins.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

You'll never find proof for anything, especially for supplements.  I agree though, the evidence is weak.  But people should be able to make up their own minds.  There is theory though, and that's a hell of a lot more than there is for a bulk of other supplements.

If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

http://www.wheyconsortium.co.uk

2x Grip Champ ('06/'08) and now European Grip champion for '08!
My Grip book - click here and buy one

If whey or casein hydrolysate increase insulin response, is this acting in the same way as carbs i.e would this kick you out of ketosis if using a ketogenic diet?

naththebeast


Good read, however it seems like it will taste disgusting and is very pricey so personally will jsut stick with standard whey.

Still some interesting stuff to read, learnt a couple of things at least

Which was my goal.  People can make their own informed choice.

James Collier
MT Co-Owner & Nutrition Consultant

Mobster



If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

No, my job is to teach and advise - I educate my clients and give my opinion, but encourage them to make up their own minds.  There isn't enough proof, but my article is to educate and I make the very valid point that there's more evidence and a stronger theory for many other supplements which people anecdotally rave about - even some sold by the more reputable supplement companies.

The power of one anecdote is far stronger than the power of epidemiology!

James Collier
MT Co-Owner & Nutrition Consultant

BigMe


If whey or casein hydrolysate increase insulin response, is this acting in the same way as carbs i.e would this kick you out of ketosis if using a ketogenic diet?

No, it's s different way to carbs, and no this would not kick you out of ketosis; the effect is relatively small.

James Collier
MT Co-Owner & Nutrition Consultant