Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

I have put together a new article regarding casein hydrolysate:

Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

You can view it through the Supplement Articles link on the right ---------------->

Or directly here

Please post comments and queries below

James Collier
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Very intersting read.  Do you take CH yourself?  Where can it be purchased?  Which would you recommend, Vitargo or WMS?

good read as usual James,

now where can we try this?

is it availbe to the public yet? If so where or when?

Cheers

BUFF

 
 BUFF!

I was looking for it and found it on myprotein.co.uk.  Reasonably priced as well.

Tastes like off rats piss. I had a sample sent to me by the same people who supply MyPro. We did a taste test... man oh man... never again. MyPro rate it as one down on their worst tasting products (CEE and amino acid powders as voted for by their taste panel). I'd make it my top worst tasting supplement. I had to spit it out rather than swallow it.

This is a close your eyes, pinch your nose and neck it quick product. You can and MUST try to mask the taste with other products. 

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weejimmy


Very intersting read.  Do you take CH yourself?  Where can it be purchased?  Which would you recommend, Vitargo or WMS?

I don't, yet.  But I'm on an 'off' period' at the mo.  When I reboot in December I may consider it.

I recommend Vitargo.

All products are available from some of our site sponsors.

James Collier
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Some companies add this to their products but you should see if you can find out what percentage of hydrolysis has take place and how much is in their product as a percentage. Because, as per James article, you want a servings worth rather than an afterthought. Because of the foul taste some add so much masking agents that the percentage of protein etc becomes lowered. 

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Good read, certainly be looking into trying this soon.I imagine it will be quite pricey but due to the fact it will only be used post workout it should last a while.

http://www.staffierescuescotland.co.uk/

Great Read James,
                 I Will try some and let you Know how i get on with it..

Nice one. Do you have details on how exactly it promotes insulin when drunk without glucose present. Why does it do this while say Whey does not?
 
Also, I thought gluconeogenesis would only take place if blood sugar was low? So if both whey.H an casein.H were taken with glucose post workout, would gluconeogenesis even be a problem?  

 Body Weight - 75kg
Bench - 140kg
Squat - 180kg
Deadlift - 180kg

Age - 21

jack5r


Nice one. Do you have details on how exactly it promotes insulin when drunk without glucose present. Why does it do this while say Whey does not?

if you read the bit titled 'Why casein hydrolysate over whey protein hydrolysate?' the answer is there

James Collier
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James

jack5r


Nice one. Do you have details on how exactly it promotes insulin when drunk without glucose present. Why does it do this while say Whey does not?

if you read the bit titled 'Why casein hydrolysate over whey protein hydrolysate?' the answer is there

Sorry, my nutrition knowledge is basic. I understand that whey has glucogenic amino acids is lower numbers, so when when sugar levels are low they would be converted into glucose and not used in protein synthesis. While casein has the glucogenic amino acids in higher numbers so there would be more available for protein sysnthesis. I still don't understand how that promotes insulin though.

 Body Weight - 75kg
Bench - 140kg
Squat - 180kg
Deadlift - 180kg

Age - 21

Glucogenic amino acids can be converted to glucose as well as being used in protein synthesis - whichever metabolic state is apparent at the time decides their fate, although there will be a degree of split between both pathways.  Seeing as hydrolysates are so rapidly disgested, these amino acids will be free in the blood quite soon after ingestion, therefore meaning a good percentage will affect carbohydrate metbolism and hence insulin, as well as being available for protein synthesis.

That's a good question actually, which took me down another avenue of thinking; so please, have I explained it ok?  This is, of course, all theory.

James Collier
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Yep, understand it now James.

Cheers.

 Body Weight - 75kg
Bench - 140kg
Squat - 180kg
Deadlift - 180kg

Age - 21

James - just a thought but are insulin levels not already raised after training??

 
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weejimmy


I was looking for it and found it on myprotein.co.uk.  Reasonably priced as well.

Yes we are the exclusive UK online sellers of PeptoPro:

http://www.myprotein.co...rotein-powders/peptopro/

A PeptoPro member of staff answered lots of questions re PeptoPro at the link below:

http://forum.myprotein....ing-soon-discussion.html

MP

www.myprotein.com
The Home of Sports Nutrition

Jeeezzz.... for the price I would say the majority of trainers are better off concentrating on the rest of their diet.

For the average trainer I can't honestly seeing it making that much difference IMO

 
www.ugm.org.uk
 
 

Good read James

I've used it with athletes with large training loads to good effect. I used to typically use a 50:50 WPH and CPH in folk's peri training shakes in Aus where it is fairly easy to get hold of and have used it with a couple of groups over here.

When there was a discernable effect, recovery seemed a tiny bit better and incidence of colds etc lower. This wasn't by any means across the board and this in groups/people who are getting a lot of things right already though, it's certainly no miracle worker.

Various BB'er types are using this and leucine with the Dave Barr type protein pulsing protocols. Don't know if that is worth the effort though.

My flavour recommendation is lemon and lime which seems to compete for the bitter sensors on your tongue

Drew Price BSc MSc 
Registered Nutritionist and S&C coach       
Consultant to Multipower Sportsfoods and Healthy Action
       
 

mick_the_brick


Jeeezzz.... for the price I would say the majority of trainers are better off concentrating on the rest of their diet.

For the average trainer I can't honestly seeing it making that much difference IMO

Agree 100%. When the experts aren't sure if it actually makes a difference...

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i tried this, its very foul tasting!

i think it would need some of the very strong flavourings such as a berry blast or similar using for things like cee to make it easily drinkable, i found myself gagging after drinking it, which is never good.

mobster, weird you mention aminos tasting foul, i have them in my training drink, and i dont mind the taste!

BODY TEMPLE  GASPARI & SYNTRAX rep.
My journal
Biomechanics coach

mick_the_brick


Jeeezzz.... for the price I would say the majority of trainers are better off concentrating on the rest of their diet.

For the average trainer I can't honestly seeing it making that much difference IMO

Possibly, and I did make this point in my last couple of sentences in the article

James Collier
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mick_the_brick


James - just a thought but are insulin levels not already raised after training??

Yes, but some people wish to raise them further, hence why they consume high glycaemic carbs.

drewsky


Good read James

I've used it with athletes with large training loads to good effect. I used to typically use a 50:50 WPH and CPH in folk's peri training shakes in Aus where it is fairly easy to get hold of and have used it with a couple of groups over here.

When there was a discernable effect, recovery seemed a tiny bit better and incidence of colds etc lower. This wasn't by any means across the board and this in groups/people who are getting a lot of things right already though, it's certainly no miracle worker.

Various BB'er types are using this and leucine with the Dave Barr type protein pulsing protocols. Don't know if that is worth the effort though.

My flavour recommendation is lemon and lime which seems to compete for the bitter sensors on your tongue

TBH mate, I didn't realise CPH had been around that long - I only came across it 6 months ago.

I can't see any marker factors really giving us any difference TBH, but like I summed up the article, there is still some worth with this supplement.

dazc


i tried this, its very foul tasting!

i think it would need some of the very strong flavourings such as a berry blast or similar using for things like cee to make it easily drinkable, i found myself gagging after drinking it, which is never good.

mobster, weird you mention aminos tasting foul, i have them in my training drink, and i dont mind the taste!

Quoting others, I've never had them. But I have used CEE and could stomach that so it's a very individual thing.

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your a better man than i! CEE had me beat! lol

BODY TEMPLE  GASPARI & SYNTRAX rep.
My journal
Biomechanics coach

Thanks for your replies James :)

 
www.ugm.org.uk
 
 

James


I have put together a new article regarding casein hydrolysate:

Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

You can view it through the Supplement Articles link on the right ---------------->

Or directly here

Please post comments and queries below

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Reflex® Nutrition "Tomorrow's Nutrition Today"

Yes James, I used to get it from Dr B at Myopure, who has been providing a bulk service in Aus since way before Myprotein and the like.

I should add I used or use this mostly with endurance athletes.

Drew Price BSc MSc 
Registered Nutritionist and S&C coach       
Consultant to Multipower Sportsfoods and Healthy Action
       
 

REFLEX

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Lack of evidence?

Sorry to pin your down but do you mean 'lack of evidence' that CPH could be considered more useful to trainees/athletes than WPH or that there is a lack of evidence that CPH is of worth for the athlete/trainee.

If the former I can see why a company could be reticent to expand operations on the basis of this, if it is the second then I would encourage you to look at the literature again.

Perhaps you mean lack of good evidence?

REFLEX

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Whether it does or not, one recent paper cited once does not equal 'scientifically proven'. There's a greater body of evidence for the efficacy of CPH than one paper for example.

There's obviously more work out there on WPH and insulin but you say 'here is the [very recent] study' and quote exact figures from it, but quote a lack of evidence for CPH, so again I don't undertand what you're basing your first statement regarding CPH and evidence on?

Be interesting to know.

Cheers.

Drew Price BSc MSc 
Registered Nutritionist and S&C coach       
Consultant to Multipower Sportsfoods and Healthy Action
       
 

In their defence James himself said it 'might' have some use.  Based on the arguments thus far and one of the other members comments I'd say there is not enough to say it's worth adding (it's expensive, tastes foul and MIGHT work / be of some use).

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Drew Price

REFLEX

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Lack of evidence?

Sorry to pin your down but do you mean 'lack of evidence' that CPH could be considered more useful to trainees/athletes than WPH or that there is a lack of evidence that CPH is of worth for the athlete/trainee.

If the former I can see why a company could be reticent to expand operations on the basis of this, if it is the second then I would encourage you to look at the literature again.

Perhaps you mean lack of good evidence?

REFLEX

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Whether it does or not, one recent paper cited once does not equal 'scientifically proven'. There's a greater body of evidence for the efficacy of CPH than one paper for example.

There's obviously more work out there on WPH and insulin but you say 'here is the [very recent] study' and quote exact figures from it, but quote a lack of evidence for CPH, so again I don't undertand what you're basing your first statement regarding CPH and evidence on?

Be interesting to know.

Cheers.

Drew,

I'll be more specific.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

Reflex® Nutrition "Tomorrow's Nutrition Today"

Cheers for the response,

actually, I'd disagree that there isn't any evidence of CPH > WPH, in fact, clearly there is.

Whether or not there is enough quality evidence, well I wouldn't want to make a large capital investment off the back of what's around at the moment.

Certainly at least on paper they both have their advantages which is why I generally combine them in peri training nutrition if I use them at all.

Thanks again.

Drew Price BSc MSc 
Registered Nutritionist and S&C coach       
Consultant to Multipower Sportsfoods and Healthy Action
       
 

Thanks for posting Reflex and Drew.

In response:

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

Well, as you pointed out this is a question.  I was hoping my concluding 2 paragraphs summed my feelings up ok.  Have a read and you'll see my thoughts.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Scientific evidence is a term which is very broad.  I'd say there's more scientific evidence for CPH than loads of other supplements, including some you sell.

And the term 'scientifically proven' is not one I like to use, because in science little is 'proven'; more 'evidence for'.

I didn't see that one study, no.  But does one study make the evidence conclusive?  Definitely not, and I made the point about evidence in my article.  Like Drew says, sure there's lack of good evidence, I agree.

Nevertheless, I wrote this article for information for readers to arm themselves with more knowledge when purchasing proteins.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

You'll never find proof for anything, especially for supplements.  I agree though, the evidence is weak.  But people should be able to make up their own minds.  There is theory though, and that's a hell of a lot more than there is for a bulk of other supplements.

James Collier
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Love the debate. Makes for very interesting reading!!

Gordon Greenhorn
Reporting for Muscletalk at the 2011 UKBFF Finals

 

Good read, however it seems like it will taste disgusting and is very pricey so personally will jsut stick with standard whey.

Still some interesting stuff to read, learnt a couple of things at least

James


Thanks for posting Reflex and Drew.

In response:

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

Well, as you pointed out this is a question.  I was hoping my concluding 2 paragraphs summed my feelings up ok.  Have a read and you'll see my thoughts.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Scientific evidence is a term which is very broad.  I'd say there's more scientific evidence for CPH than loads of other supplements, including some you sell.

And the term 'scientifically proven' is not one I like to use, because in science little is 'proven'; more 'evidence for'.

I didn't see that one study, no.  But does one study make the evidence conclusive?  Definitely not, and I made the point about evidence in my article.  Like Drew says, sure there's lack of good evidence, I agree.

Nevertheless, I wrote this article for information for readers to arm themselves with more knowledge when purchasing proteins.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

You'll never find proof for anything, especially for supplements.  I agree though, the evidence is weak.  But people should be able to make up their own minds.  There is theory though, and that's a hell of a lot more than there is for a bulk of other supplements.

If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

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If whey or casein hydrolysate increase insulin response, is this acting in the same way as carbs i.e would this kick you out of ketosis if using a ketogenic diet?

naththebeast


Good read, however it seems like it will taste disgusting and is very pricey so personally will jsut stick with standard whey.

Still some interesting stuff to read, learnt a couple of things at least

Which was my goal.  People can make their own informed choice.

James Collier
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Mobster



If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

No, my job is to teach and advise - I educate my clients and give my opinion, but encourage them to make up their own minds.  There isn't enough proof, but my article is to educate and I make the very valid point that there's more evidence and a stronger theory for many other supplements which people anecdotally rave about - even some sold by the more reputable supplement companies.

The power of one anecdote is far stronger than the power of epidemiology!

James Collier
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BigMe


If whey or casein hydrolysate increase insulin response, is this acting in the same way as carbs i.e would this kick you out of ketosis if using a ketogenic diet?

No, it's s different way to carbs, and no this would not kick you out of ketosis; the effect is relatively small.

James Collier
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