Calories v Carbs

Stu: er according to an awful lot of people - a healthy diet does include fish.

That would imply that it would not be possible to be a vegetarian and have a healthy diet?

hamiltonsfitness

Stu: er according to an awful lot of people - a healthy diet does include fish.

That would imply that it would not be possible to be a vegetarian and have a healthy diet?

Thing is - actually it is more difficult to have a healthy diet when veggie - not by general population standards whereby actually eating fruit and veg counts as healthy - but in terms of complete nutrition - then certainly is more tricky without meat and fish to cover yourself for all your micro requirements.

Any veggie should know this and have their diet planned accordingly :)

Sorry to split hairs Les, but are you saying that it is possible to have a healthy diet and be a vegetarian, i.e. not eat any fish?

I don't want to upset you as I agree with pretty much everything you say, but I think it's important that people don't get the idea that you can't be healthy without eating fish, as I know of vegetarians that go against their principles because they have been told that they HAVE to eat at least fish.

yes you can have a healthy diet without meat or fish - you can have a healthy veggie or vegan diet.

However, by not having meat and fish you make it harder to get certain micronutrients; yes there are conversion pathways and alternatives - however for some it means much more careful diet planning (than the average joe for sure) and for others we are not sure just how efficient that pathway really is.

So yes - you can be very healthy - to say otherwise would be a bit daft !

Not trying to hijack, just have a quick question to HamiltonsFitness and Les, would you say about 100g of fat for a 6'3 70kg male is ok?
I am currently getting this from nuts/egg yolks etc as i dont have much fat in my diet at all! e.g. dont eat lots of red meat, oil etc

im aiming for 180-200+p, 100f, rest carbs to meet 2600 kcal a day for a lean bulk, does this sound ok?

I think lean bulking is a bad concept

I also think 2600 is not a lot to grow on

100g is what 900 calories - in my diet fat content is usually in the 20-30% range just by meeting protein and carb levels for growing - and for you to have 100g a day I would be doing you about 3000kcal a day - which is also about where I would start a good bulking diet.

its all here http://articles.musclet...rticle-mass-gaining.aspx

hamiltonsfitness

Big Les
ps: healthy diet includes oily fish at least once a week dont it :)

It doesn't need to fish, oily or not, in it at all.

Well, if somebody wants to be as grumpy as you Stu, by all means leave out the oily fish!

DHA is good for the brain (and women are much better converters of DPA -> DHA than men are). It's possible to buy vegan DHA (of algal origin), so vegetarians & vegans can have a healthy diet.

better to expend 5000 and eat 4000 than itis to expend 2000 and eat 1000

Probably best advice i found when i was cutting.  I didn't actually worry to much about my calorie intake i just made sure i burnt shed loads and lifted as heavy as i could.

Big Les


I think lean bulking is a bad concept

I also think 2600 is not a lot to grow on

100g is what 900 calories - in my diet fat content is usually in the 20-30% range just by meeting protein and carb levels for growing - and for you to have 100g a day I would be doing you about 3000kcal a day - which is also about where I would start a good bulking diet.

its all here http://articles.musclet...rticle-mass-gaining.aspx

cheers mate, when i say lean bulking i mean getting big without masses of excess fat, i understand i will inevitably gain some body fat but id much rather be able to cut down in a few weeks and be real defined as oppose to a few months!

I have just changed to eating this way and am experementing at the moment e.g. im eating 2600 ed and seeing if i gain 0.5~lb a week. if i dont gain that much i will up it to 2800 etc, if i gain more ill up cardio/lower cals

Do you think this is a good idea? or would you reccomend just jumping to 3000? i feared this would encourage fat gain, (a few months ago i was eating around 1200~ kcal a day! not anorexic lol just not hungry)

Not trying to hijack, just have a quick question to HamiltonsFitness and Les, would you say about 100g of fat for a 6'3 70kg male is ok?

100g of fat is more than enough, of course it depends on what type it is, of the wrong sort then it is way too much.

As for 2600 kcals it depends on what you are burning. I'm currently 100kg 'off season' eat around 2600 kcals, but someone else burning more would need more.

cheers mate, im currently getting my fat via nuts, egg yolks, salmon(other oily fish) and tiny bits of OO, This sound ok?

think is im only 70kg and have been eating bang on these calories/macros for only 9 days but i havent fluctuated in weight at all! im aiming to put on about 0.5lb a week so should i wait for 2-3 weeks with this diet or just bump it up to 2800 ed now?

My muscles feel bigger/harder since eating more and my recovery is deffonatly up!

0.5lb of weight a week is both quite a lot if you're trying to keep the bodyfat within reason and also very difficult to measure on a day by day basis.

I would keep to this kcal for at least 4 to 6 weeks before making any changes.

In my experience I have not needed to add anything for fat, enough fat comes into your diet anyway, even if you are eating really clean.

hamiltonsfitness
0.5lb of weight a week is both quite a lot if you're trying to keep the bodyfat within reason and also very difficult to measure on a day by day basis.

Agree.

hamiltonsfitness
I would keep to this kcal for at least 4 to 6 weeks before making any changes.

Agree.

hamiltonsfitness
In my experience I have not needed to add anything for fat, enough fat comes into your diet anyway, even if you are eating really clean.

Disagree. Your fat intake is very low, Stu. As you're virtually vegan, unless you're supplementing with vegan DHA, your brain is crying out for some DHA as men are p*ss-poor converters of DPA->DHA compared to women.

By the way, did you know that soluble fibre is converted by gut bacteria into short-chain saturated fatty acids (mostly butyric acid)? So your high-carbohydrate, ultra-low-fat diet effectively contains quite a lot of saturated fat. Food for thought, eh?

Although - the metabolism of short chain fatty acids produced by gut bacteria is different than the saturated fat derived from your diet :)

As you're virtually vegan

Really, this goes to show me how quick you are to jump to conclusions. From this I would suspect that you come to your conclusion first and then only look for evidence until you find enough to convince yourself of your existing hypothesis.

A lot to conclude from a little sentance, I know, but that's how you do it isn't it.

cheers everyone, Problem is if i dont add nuts etc i wont get much fat at all, dont eat chicken skin, hardly any red meant, dont cook in oil etc!

Damn i read a few places that 0.5lb a week is a good target for max muscle/glycogen gain without adding the fat! so ill stick with it for at least a month, would 0.5lb a month be more realistic? or every 2 weeks?

hamiltonsfitness

As you're virtually vegan

Really, this goes to show me how quick you are to jump to conclusions. From this I would suspect that you come to your conclusion first and then only look for evidence until you find enough to convince yourself of your existing hypothesis. A lot to conclude from a little sentance, I know, but that's how you do it isn't it.

Are you saying that you do eat oily fish? I could have sworn that you have stated on many occasions that you don't eat any sort of fish and therefore don't supplement with either fish or krill oil.

Ergo: you're virtually vegan and therefore have zero dietary intake of DHA unless you're supplementing with vegan DHA. What part of what I wrote did you not understand?

What part of what I wrote did you not understand?

I believe I understand all of what you say, but I don't think you do.

Not eating fish doesn't make you virtually vegan.

Disagree. Your fat intake is very low, Stu. As you're virtually vegan, unless you're supplementing with vegan DHA, your brain is crying out for some DHA as men are p*ss-poor converters of DPA->DHA compared to women

Except for the lack of data to indicate deficits in brain development among vegetarians

Surrogate outcomes are nice and all but always preliminary. And why it is far too early to say for certain wither way ^^

I'm not going to get into an argument over wording/semantics/w.h.y. You don't eat fish. Do you supplement with vegan DHA?