Frankie NY's Mass Building Program

richyd:

Before changing anything, I would recommend sorting out your chinning form. Bad form can cause a plateau very easily. Have someone look at the factors I mentioned previously.

Standing or seated calf raises are good. I'd do 3 sets of 12 reps.

Lever lifts. Grab an axe, sledgehammer, garden tool, whatever with a handle and weight at one end only. Hold your arm out in front so that it forms a 90 degree angle with your body. Hold the "tool" so that it is straight with your arm. Now, raise it up so that it forms a 90 degree angle with your arm. Repeat for 3 sets of 5 reps. Use only your wrists to move the tool. Do not bend your arm.

In addition to raising the tool straight up and down, you can move it from side to side. For example, hold your arm straight out in front of you with the tool at a 90 degree angle to your arm. Now turn your hand toward the ground until the tool is parallel to the ground. Or with the tool held at a 90 degree angle to your arm, turn your hand the other way until your palm is facing straight up and the tool is parallel to the ground.

If hold the tool at the end is too heavy, just choke up, but be sure to mark it with a pencil or marker so that you can measure your progress.

Chigs:

All your questions have been answered in this thread. Read it from the beginning.

Something I have never quite understood and also relates to this routine is the possibility of not having enough recovery time for legs if you do deads on a different day to your leg day. To me deads seem to be a major leg exercise (in addition to back, obviously). In a mon/wed/fri three day split such as this one your legs get more major work from the deads well before a full week of recovery from leg day. For this reason I have been doing legs and back together in a monday/thursday two day split, with chest and shoulders on the other day.

I would like to try the routine from this thread but would like advice about the over-cooked legs thing.

i train pull (deads etc) on monday and do legs - squats on thursday. that way i get plenty of rest inbetween. i dont use the m/w/f split since it inteferes with the rest of my life n my training partners cant make it. i do push on saturday. HTH

Thanks for the reply Block. Still seems to me you have much less than a week rest between the deads and the leg day, which is my concern. You only have 3 days rest after monday, and 4 days after thursday, between leg exercises (if I am correct in labelling deads as a back AND leg exercise).

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Originally posted by Ozman

Something I have never quite understood and also relates to this routine is the possibility of not having enough recovery time for legs if you do deads on a different day to your leg day.

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I don't really see this as an issue. Yes, legs are worked secondarily with deadlifts but not to such an extent that by Friday they aren't recovered enough to squat. Besides, you're only doing 5 sets of deadlifts and 5 sets of squats a week. If you experience a leg recovery problem with that little a volume, I would examine other aspects of your training like sleep, diet, etc.

FRANKIE CHEERS! MATE

Excellent post Frankie Thanking you. :D

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Originally posted by Frankie NY

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Originally posted by Ozman

Something I have never quite understood and also relates to this routine is the possibility of not having enough recovery time for legs if you do deads on a different day to your leg day.

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I don't really see this as an issue. Yes, legs are worked secondarily with deadlifts but not to such an extent that by Friday they aren't recovered enough to squat.

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Thanks for your reply Frankie. I take on board it's not an issue for you, and you have plenty of success with the routine. BUT

1. Deads seem to involve a range of leg movement very similar to a squat, it's just the bar is held differently to involve much of the back as well. So isn't it similarly hard on your legs as a squat and not a 'secondary' leg exercise?

2. If you are squatting and doing the other leg set on Friday it is only three days until Monday, when you do the deads. 3 days is not enough recovery for a body part (legs in this case) according to just about everything I read, which says a week is the best. I know it's not enough for me, cos I am just losing the soreness by then.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

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Originally posted by Ozman

1. Deads seem to involve a range of leg movement very similar to a squat, it's just the bar is held differently to involve much of the back as well. So isn't it similarly hard on your legs as a squat and not a 'secondary' leg exercise?

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Deadlifts are not similarly hard on your legs. Squats tax the legs much more. All I can tell you is that I've never had a trainee have a problem with squatting on Friday and deadlifting on Monday OR squatting on Monday and deadliftng on Friday. As I mentioned before, you're only doing 5 work sets. That shouldn't create a problem.

But if you find that your legs take a long time to recover, then squat on Monday and deadlift on Friday. Conversely, some guys claim that their posterior chain is sore for many days after deadlifting and it impedes their ability to squat, so for them deadlifting on Monday and squatting on Friday is the way to go.

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2. If you are squatting and doing the other leg set on Friday it is only three days until Monday, when you do the deads. 3 days is not enough recovery for a body part (legs in this case) according to just about everything I read, which says a week is the best. I know it's not enough for me, cos I am just losing the soreness by then.

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First of all, there's no such thing as only working a muscle once a week. Even if you only "work" each muscle once a week with "direct" exercises, it is in fact impossible not to work each muscle 2 or 3 times a week. Take shoulders for example. Yes, you may only train shoulders once a week on PUSH day, but when you deadlift, you work your shoulders. When you squat, you work your shoulders. Likewise, you may only train lats once a week on PULL day, but when you bench, your lats get killed. This is true for every muscle. My point here is that it's impossible to train each muscle only once a week, so don't get too caught up in limiting working each muscle to once a week unless you intend to have only one monster workout a week.

About the Friday to Monday issue. The difference here is that you are deadlifting after not having touched a weight for 72 hours. Not only are your legs almost 100% recovered, but more importantly, your central nervous system is well rested. Even if you still have a little soreness in your legs, deadlifting is not going to have any negative effects.

All this being said, it seems that the best course of action for you is to squat on Monday and deadlift on Friday.

Frankie, im starting back from a 6 week lay-off due to a strain in my back. I had settled on the idea of doing something similar to your routine:
Everything 5x5 except where stated

MONDAY
Deadliftprogressively heavier singles
chins
1-arm rows

WEDNESDAY
Bench 5x5 and occasional progressively heavier singles, im new to serious benching and i want to find my 1rm then push it higher
dips
seated d.bell shoulder press

FRIDAY
Squats
weighted crunches or weighted hanging leg raises

My main aim is to get stronger, more size would be a welcome bonus, as im not big.
I dont trust SLDLs any more (or maybe i dont trust my form, and with noone around who does them in my gym to advise, its the same difference)
Should i just keep to 5x5 for all exercises, or are progressively heavier singles on deads/bench acceptable? maybe i should do 5x5 on deadlift most weeks, and singles occasionally, like i plan with bench press?

cheers
L.

Thanks for the further info Frankie!

Mintaka:

Sorry to hear about the 6 week layoff. That's a real downer. Be sure to ease back into it, like dropping 15-20% off your lifts to start and gradually building back up.

There's nothing wrong with training with singles; however, you do need to build up to them intelligently or you run a high risk of injury. Singles require a tremendous degree of tendon and ligament strength that can only be built up gradually over time using lower rep sets. I would recommend doing 5x5 for at least 6 months and then 3x3 for 3-6 months before training with singles. I know it sounds like a long time, but it's needed and it's worth it.

On a separate note, if you're only doing squats and some ab work on Friday, you could easily add some heavy grip or forearm work.

cheers frankie,

I forgot to state i will be doing grip work, and friday seems like a good day for the gym based parts of it.

Your 5x5 for 6 months, 3x3 for 3-6 months, is that for deadlifts AND bench, or just for bench, in which i have little experience (ive been doing dips instead). Are my many (more than 6) months of deadlifting cancelled out by the 6 week lay-off?

im just going for my monday workout now, i'll do everything 5x5.
thanks
L.

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Originally posted by Frankie NY


Conversely, some guys claim that their posterior chain is sore for many days after deadlifting and it impedes their ability to squat, so for them deadlifting on Monday and squatting on Friday is the way to go.

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Frankie, could you please describe to me from your experiences from training others exactly the sensation felt in the posterior chain after deadlifting?

Thanks, it's just I am trying to diagnose whether the sensation I am getting for 2 days after deads is normal.

Cheers.

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Originally posted by Mintaka

Your 5x5 for 6 months, 3x3 for 3-6 months, is that for deadlifts AND bench, or just for bench? Are my many (more than 6) months of deadlifting cancelled out by the 6 week lay-off?

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For all exercises. No, a 6 week layoff shouldn't cancel out 6 months of hard training. Your strength should come back pretty quickly after the first couple of weeks. Don't get discouraged during the first two weeks back when your body won't be used to lifting weights.

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Originally posted by DaveH

Could you please describe to me from your experiences from training others exactly the sensation felt in the posterior chain after deadlifting?

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It varies a lot. Some guys feel a dull ache. Some guys feel a sharper ache. If you haven't been deadlifting long, you can have some serious lower back soreness for several days. If you've been deadlifting for a while, most guys claim that the lower back soreness is much less.

The location of soreness varies greatly too. Some guys have soreness in the lower back. Others in the rear delts. A few in the legs. Me personally, I get soreness in between the sholder blades and almost no where else.

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Originally posted by Frankie NY

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Originally posted by DaveH

Could you please describe to me from your experiences from training others exactly the sensation felt in the posterior chain after deadlifting?

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It varies a lot. Some guys feel a dull ache. Some guys feel a sharper ache. If you haven't been deadlifting long, you can have some serious lower back soreness for several days. If you've been deadlifting for a while, most guys claim that the lower back soreness is much less.

The location of soreness varies greatly too. Some guys have soreness in the lower back. Others in the rear delts. A few in the legs. Me personally, I get soreness in between the sholder blades and almost no where else.

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Cheers Frankie.

I get muscle soreness in the traps, shoulder blades and like you say a dull ache in the lower back. If I press the lower back muscles a bit more pain emits...

DaveH:

When my lower back is sore after deadlifting, I have the perfect remedy. I lie face down on the floor and have my wife (or girlfriend) sit on my lower back and rock back and forth ever so slightly. It helps with soreness immensely.

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Originally posted by Frankie NY

DaveH:

When my lower back is sore after deadlifting, I have the perfect remedy. I lie face down on the floor and have my wife (or girlfriend) sit on my lower back and rock back and forth ever so slightly. It helps with soreness immensely.

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I like it. I will ask her to do that. She does not weight too much...

I need some sort out of remedy for deadlift. I can put up with the traps and shoulder soreness but the lower back soreness gives me a funny walk.

Thanks.