Frankie NY's Mass Building Program

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Shrugs??????? Remember we're focusing on heavy compound movements and not wasting time and energy on isolation exercises for now. Your traps will get hit plenty hard with heavy deadlifts, trust me.

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Okay I'll trust u!
I'm gonna got with bb rows for the first twelve weeks too!

Thanks for all your help frankie, you seem to be full of good advice! and a worthy addition to the muscletalk team!

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Originally posted by Genon

I think I will try this for at least a month and see what it does... If I enjoy it I'll do a full 12 week cycle. I just have one question...
Should we use this routine like a normal 5x5 strength routine and add weight whenever possible? Like... Atleast add 2 pounds per week. Or should we add weight only when on our 4th and 5th sets we can pump out 7-10 reps when we should only be able to do 5?

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You need at least 3 months to evaluate any program. One month is too short to make an informed decision.

Yes, use 5x5 like a normal strength routine and add weight when you can get 5 reps on your last set. Even if you can get 6, 7, or 8 reps on the fifth set, stop at 5 and increase the weight the following week.

Yo Frankie, I've just started this routine, its a million times better than my previous efforts. I've learnt so much from this forum its excellent !
Im going to post my results from the start, middle and end - I PRAY that by the end i can lift more than 40kgs on my bench press - lol
:D

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this. I'm in a pickle, and would appreciate your thought as to whether I should choose option A or option B. Apologies if this seems like a trivial question

The last week and a half I have done:


Sat: Pull

Mon: Push

Wed: Legs


Sat: Pull

Mon (last night): Push


and here's the snag (plans for the rest of the week):

Wed: Comedy Club

Sat: Watching Rugby @ Twickenham

Sun: Working all day


SO.. - shall i


A:

Tues (tonight): Legs

Thurs: Pull

Mon: Push

Wed: Legs

This would enable me to carry on with my weekly routine as planned, but I would be sacrificing my rest day.


Or B:

Thurs: Legs

Mon: Pull

Wed: Push

etc etc

I'd get my rest day, but I would carry on in the weeks to come one day behind schedule.


Considerations:

Option A: I feel fresh enough today, even though I done "Push" yesterday, and obviously I will be concentrating on completely different bodyparts tonight.

Option B: I'll be giving myself more rest, but I'll behind on my schedule by one day.

[?]

Cheers

It's always better to undertrain than overtrain, but if you feel up to it, go for it.

Hi guys,
new here and I must say this topic is very interesting and I think I will give it a try.
Just one question: do you guys believe that there is a best time for working out? I workout in the morning (literally 1 and a half hour after waking up and a protein shake) and was wondering if it would be better to swap to a late afternoon one 3 times a week following Frankie's advices.
Obviously I'm more interested in raw mass rather than muscles definition.
Cheers

Nick

Frankie, great post man ... a week in and I feel great!
With regard to the deadlifts, can someone break down (as best as possible) the differences between the form for deadlifts that hit the back more and lifts that work the legs? A trainer at my gym mentioned that starting the lift from the waist (using a rack) worked the back a bit more. Anyone know anything about this?

Hey, the routine and all the info in these posts is great. I will b estarting this routine soon , after my soccer season is over in the fall. I was wondering if you reccomend any cardio during thsi routine and if so how much. I am always scared of totally droppoing cardio , because im scared of gaining too much fat. thanks

msclgut - you maybe interested in this thread:

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=58277

blacklab - check this out:

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9197&SearchTerms=+safe+operation

Frankie,

Any suggestions on incorporating forearm or grip work into this routine?

Thanks

Just dont wear wrist straps. That will work your forearms and grip hard enough

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Originally posted by Mighty306

Any suggestions on incorporating forearm or grip work into this routine?

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Shreklikedave said exactly what I would have told you. Deadlifts, stiff leg deadlifts, curls, rows, and if you do them, chins, should give you all the grip and forearm work you need for now.

If you want to incorporate some CoCs into your routine, that's fine. I would do CoCs on your cardio days.

Frankie,
I have been looking everywhere for a routine that is going to help me gain muscle mass. Now I don't know much about body building, but everyone seems to love the routine you posted. So are you saying the routine I am currently doing isn't going to get me anywhere?

My routine:

Day 1 (Chest and triceps)
Benchpress 3x8
Decline Benchpress 3x8
Incline dumbbell flies 2x10
Incline dumbbell press 2x10
Skull crushers 3x8
cable push downs 2x10
close grip bench 2x10
db kickbacks 2x10

Day 2 (Back and biceps)
deadlifts 3x8
seated rows 3x8
lat pull downs 2x10
bb rows 2x10
bb curls 3x8
hammer curls 2x10
45 degree db curls 2x10

Day 3 (shoulders and legs)
military press 3x8
shrugs 3x8
upright rows 2x10
db lateral raises 2x10
squats 4x6
sldls 2x10
weighted calve raises 2x10

I designed this routine through this website and when I posted it everyone told me it was good and I should see very nice gains. Obvoisly it is much different than the one you posted, so it has made me confused. If you could please give me some of your insight, it would be greatly apreciated.

HCTPF5

Here...P5, now I'm guessing, but I think Frankie may well say that if you have enough strength left to do all those exercises then you are not working hard enough on the first ones. If you *are* working hard enough - then the rest are not necessary and in fact, could cause injury.

Also, you are leaving very little recovery time for things like shoulders - which will get HAMMERED on each of your workout days if you are going to full intensity.

I've banged my head against this one too matey and have spent the last few sessions moving slowly from my 4 day split of 3x8 to this 3 day split of 5x5 - starting tomorrow.

Frankie - I'm making great progress with the flat db press and don't have a spotter for bb press so am thinking of this for chest day:

Flat db press
inclined flies (or should I do dips instead??)

Also, for shoulders, I can do standing bb millitary press to failure - but am still able then to lift the same weight in dumbells for more reps in seated press. How come - and should I stick to the seated db press for shoulder mass in this case? Or should I do both as I now do?

Finally (sorry to go on!) what do you think of progressively heavier deadlifts as opposed to 5x5?

thanks muchly mate - I'm converted btw. Hey, I even did squats without a belt last week - didn't even notice :-)

I think Dips would be better for adding mass

Im currently doing this great routine from frankie but have replaced barbel curls with close grip chins and put them before barbell rows now which are now last on pull day.

Ive been doing this routine using 4x6 set/rep range rather than the more popular 5x5 due to time constraints and was wondering if doing 4x6 is any less productive in terms of mass building than 5x5??

cheers

Can somebody explain to me exactly how doing 3 lifts a day with high intensity is going to get you huge? I'm just really confused, because i have constructed my routine using this website, and everyone says its good for gaining great mass.. and now i see this post, and ALL the coments? i would just like for someone to explain

thanks
f5

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Originally posted by HerecomesthePainF5

Frankie,
I have been looking everywhere for a routine that is going to help me gain muscle mass. Now I don't know much about body building, but everyone seems to love the routine you posted. So are you saying the routine I am currently doing isn't going to get me anywhere?

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You're doing too many exercises and your reps are way to high. Obviously, you can make gains on the routine you're doing, but could you be making more and faster gains doing something else? YES !!!

I wouldn't do more than 3 or 4 exercises per workout, and I would use reps in the 5-6 range for adding maximum size and strength. This is the scheme that is the most productive for the drug-free weight lifter looking to add size and strength. When you work with heavy weights and maximum intensity it's difficult and unnecessary to do more than 3 or 4 exercises per workout. It's also difficult and unproductive to work out more than 3 days a week.

Try the routine for 3 months. I guarantee you that you'll see better gains than what you're doing now.

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Originally posted by Sword

(or should I do dips instead??)

Also, for shoulders, I can do standing bb millitary press to failure - but am still able then to lift the same weight in dumbells for more reps in seated press. How come - and should I stick to the seated db press for shoulder mass in this case? Or should I do both as I now do?

Finally (sorry to go on!) what do you think of progressively heavier deadlifts as opposed to 5x5?

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Do dips. Dips and barbell benches should be the core of your chest program. Flys are now where near as effective at adding mass.

Always do your shoulder presses standing. It's a more intense workout for your shoulders, and it helps strengthen your trunk and stabilizing muscles, which will help you in other lifts.

You can do only barbell shoulder presses for one cycle and then only dumbbell shoulder presses for the next cycle or you can alternate from week to week. It doesn't matter. Just because you can lift more with the dumbbells you still need to do the barbell shoulder presses too. They work the shoulder in slightly different and useful ways.

For your first 5x5 cycle I wouldn't do progressively heavier deadlifts like a 5/4/3/2/1 scheme. Just do 2-3 progressively heavier warmup sets and then your 5 work sets. After a cycle or two, you can go down to 4 or 3 work sets. But for now, stick with 5 work sets. It will help you have a good, solid base.

Frankie, i was thinking about adding andro to my lifting habits. would this still be a good routine if i did that or would i wanna look for a routine with more to it? just a couple questions

PainF5:

For personal reasons I won't comment on the use of performance enhancing drugs, including over the counter.

My best advice is to train harder than humanly possible. How hard you train is a much more important variable in determining how strong and how big you become than drugs, supplements, or diet.

Frankie, I have decided to do your program for the 12 weeks and see how i like it, and track my gains and all that. i will be starting that in a week or two.. I was wondering about cardio? I shouldn't do too much cardio right? otherwise it would burn off some of what i'm gaining? or is that wrong?

i was thinkin that maybe i'd do cardio 3 days a week:
15 minute run
10 minute jump rope
6 minutes shadow boxing

let me know on this one, and thanks alot man.

You always need to do cardio, even when bulking. The heart is the most important muscle in the body. You also need some cardiovascular endurance for good squatting. Plus cardio helps keep unwanted fat off your body when you are bulking.

I'd recommend moderate cardio 3 times per week for 25-30 minutes. You can ride a bike, speed walk on a tread mill, play basketball, whatever. The only thing I wouldn't do is run. Running really taxes the recovery of your legs.

Please let us know how you progress. Good luck!

Hi Frankie, that workout looks ideal for me. I've been doing ckd for some time now losing bodyfat and I'll be starting to bulk in the next 3/4 weeks I reckon.(been training about a year and don't know much about it.) I workout 3 times a week before work and I need to get in and out as quick as possible. i.e. 45 mins to 1 hr. Can you tell me how long you reckon each workout should take. is that 3-5 mins rest between each set? I just need to know so I can gauge my performance. If its meant to take 1hr and I'm out in 30mins I'm obviously lifting too light! Also, what sort of warm up? or is it simply 5 X 5 after stretching?

I would do 5 minutes of moderate cardio just to break a slight sweat, stretch for about 10 minutes, and then hit the weights. The weight portion of your workout shouldn't take more than 60-70 minutes if you don't socialize too much. Rest 2-5 minutes between sets. You'll probably need up to 5 minutes between sets for squats and deadlifts but maybe only as little as 2 minutes for exercises like rows or close-grip benches.

hi

Ive been doing frankie's routine using 4x6 instead of 5x5 to save time and over the course of the workout you save yourself 3 sets worth of workout time/rest and can maybe take slightly shorter rests between sets. It saves me some time. I asked a question earlier in this thread about the effects of doing 4x6 as opposed to 5x5 but didn't get a reply so im not quite sure if 4x6 is any less productive in mass/strength building than 5x5.

Ugh [xx(] major shoulder blowout Frankie!

this week I worked on my flat db presses and dips almost to the point of tears - and to absolute failure.

However, when it came to shoulders, there was absolutely nothing left there. I can millitary press 60kg for sets but couldn't do one rep - so I tried the dumbells (old favourite!) Normally comfortable with 30kg bells but struggled with 25s.

So does not doing my shoulders on Friday now mean that I'm going to have to drop the weight - and if so, how will this build as much mass as donig them on Fridays with more weight?

No criticism - honest - just need to be very very sure before I go ahead and drop so much weight from an exercise when I know I have been shifting much more and progressing by doing chest on Wed and shoulders on Friday (with legs on Thurs and back on Mon)...

thanks muchly

thanks :)

Sword:

I'm glad you pointed this out as I meant to mention it in the mass building routine I posted.

Some people will find two chest exercises to be too much. They won't have anything left for shoulders. This is my case. I do flat benches, overhead presses, and then either close-grip benches, close grip dips, or a forearm exercise. My chest grows fine and my bench goes up from just one excercise. You could try the same.

I wouldn't move shoulders to leg day. The problem is that your shoulders get hit hard all three days you train, and this is too much. Also, I wouldn't work my shoulders and triceps only 48 hours after having worked chest, which is what happens if you move them to leg day.

This is a long way of saying that two chest exercises may be too much if you want to hit your shoulder presses hard.

Thanks Frankie,
what about warm up sets or is it simply straight into working sets after stretching??

I'm doing 5x5 at the moment and I take three sets to warm up then three work sets because two sets doesn't feel enough for me when going so heavy.
I guess i'm doing 6x5 lol

Frankie,

Could you explain to me what chins are and bent over bb rows? and the proper way to do them?

sword

i was having the same problem with my shoulders so i changed the order that i do my exercises instead of

barbell bench press
incline db press
military press

i do

barbell bench press
military press
incline db press

that way my shoulders dont get neglected

Read the "Curious about an exercise" post.

Barbell Rows vs. Seated Machine Rows .. which is best for this program?

I currently do a 2 day split.I weigh about 150lbs and lift the following weights..
Squat
Reps Weight
10 X 94
10 X 114
10 X 124
10 X 134

Bench--same as squat except I only got 9 reps out today when I tried it on the last set. Been Keto dieting without carbing up for 2 weeks and I may have lost some strength. Got 10 the last time I did it!

deadlift
Reps Weight
10 X 84
10 X 94
10 X 104
10 X 124
I'm only doing the deadlift about a month and find it very gruelling. I was lifting up to 124lbs for 10 reps and I pulled a muscle in my back. My form got bad as I increased the weight so I dropped it to a safe weight. I still find the above weight heavy!
I've been Keto dieting + weekly carb loading for some time. I'm now ready to start gaining and I'll be using creatine(for the 1st time) and MRPS(homemade) and taking in plenty of calories and carbs.
On the basis of that information can you stab a guess at what weight I should be trying to lift(for starters) while doing the above 5 X 5 routine.

Also, BFY1 asked about a 4 X 6. Is that less productive? Can anyone answer that because I need to be in and out of the gym in about 70 to 80 minutes including warmup and stretching.
Thanks for the help!!

excellent post! i was thinkingh of changing my routine as i had been over training,Im gunna try frankies routine with 5x5s..how do i do 5x5s..do i increase the weight each set?

ts ok i have found f ny explanation in a different post.

Excellent routine and i cant wait to try it.

I've been doing this routine for about 5 or 6 weeks now and my lifts have gone up every week. I was sceptical at first thinking there wasn't enough volume but I get some really good doms for the next couple of days.
I'm hoping my progress will continue for the next few weeks but I realise I may hit the wall sooner or later on adding weight. What should I do when (or if) that happens?
For what it's worth my deadlift has increased loads (probably because I never used to do it and started at too low a weight although it felt heavy at the time). Compared to when I was doing a 3x10 routine I'm deadlifting about 45Kg more, benching 25Kg more, and squating 20Kg more. I guess I wasn't pushing myself hard enough when I was doing 3x10 and although every week while doing this 5x5 feels really hard I'm still improving my lifts each week.

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Originally posted by Springy

I've been doing this routine for about 5 or 6 weeks now and my lifts have gone up every week.

I'm hoping my progress will continue for the next few weeks but I realise I may hit the wall sooner or later on adding weight. What should I do when (or if) that happens?

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Those are great results! Congratulations!

If you plateau on one core exercise (squat, deadlift, or bench) for a few weeks, don't sweat it. That's totally normal. If you plateau on two or more for more than 2 weeks, that's a good sign that you need to take a week off. If you haven't taken a week off by week 12, take one off completely. No weights and only moderate cardio. You need to give your legs a chance to fully recover after 12 consecutive weeks of heavy deadlifting and squatting.

Then begin a new 12 week cycle of 5x5. In the second cycle, you'll probably need to take a week off a little sooner than with the first cycle. But maybe not. Just play it by ear. You can also mix up your exercises a little if you want. Front squats for back squats. Barbell incline bench for barbell flat bench. Dumbbell flat bench for dumbbell incline bench. Dumbbell overhead press for barbell overhead press. Power cleans for deadlifts. Etc.