Gradually reducing carbs, or just stopping?

Im cutting in April and I was discussing cutting diets with a mate of mine. He's been very successful with cutting diets in the past, I've seen him get down to sub 10% on numerous occassions and I'm always amazed at how much LBM he manages to retain. Point being, I trust his opinion greatly. He is an MMA athlete though, not a bodybuilder.

Anyway he says what he finds the most effective is getting to a point where you're eating lots of protein, lots of fats, and basically no starchy carbs (so carbs only from veg). This is basically what I had planned on doing anyway, but he says it would be better to gradually reduce the amount of carbs in my diet over a period of weeks, rather than just cutting them out at the start.

He says the benefit of this would be that cutting out carbs from the outset would make me very tired and lethargic and also make one more likely to want to cheat. But personally I think I would find it easier to just stick to a hard and fast 'NO CARBS' rule, it takes away any variables and even if it did make me tired at the start, I have heard reports of many people feeling much more energetic on keto style diets.

But would there be any benefit in gradually reducing carbs over just cutting out carbs from the outset, in terms of holding onto muscle mass? Or will the difference be negligible?

Also finally, I weigh just around 100kg, I have absolutely no idea what my maintenance calories are so I have no idea what kind of number I should be shooting for when cutting. I know this will be different for everybody, but if anyone could give me just a ball park figure that maybe I could start with, and then monitor and adjust from there.

Thanks!

Have a read of the Dave Palumbo diet if you want something easy to follow.

You would want the 220lbs male- you won't have that much lean tissue, but its provides a good start point. Start with cardio first thing at 30mins each morning, if weight isn't dropping, increase cardio 5-10minutes each day.

Ignore the weight the first week as will lose 5-10lbs from carbs alone. Second week is a better indication of starting weight.

Up cardio, then introduce fat burners, then tweak the diet. You want to be eating as much food as possible before you need to start reducing it. Do it logically and in slow steps- I learnt last year about doing it all too quickly and the result was feeling terrible all day and losing both muscle and fat.

How do people on zero carbs manage to even do cardio let alone weights? I have headaches and feel very hungry on a low-carb diet so I don't know how people survive on zero carb.

Why not eat say

Mon - going for weights -eat medium carbs
Tue - doing cardio/walking - eat low carbs
Wed - same as Mon
Thu - same as Tue

You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.

Chrisla


You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.

Don't carbs provide energy? Can you work out in the gym properly on zero carbs just as if you were properly carbed up? How many marathon runners are on the atkins diet for example?

Chrisla


You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.



I'm thinking of cutting carbs. Dya not think its harder to train weights without carbs. I've already reduced them and noticed on back days i.e. when doing dead lift that my exercises afterwards are harder and I'm a bit shaky..feel like I'm lacking energy. I take even deeper breaths to try and compensate on other lifts.

And I still haven't worked this forum out...my reply is all greyed out!

Bluenose17

I'm thinking of cutting carbs. Dya not think its harder to train weights without carbs. I've already reduced them and noticed on back days i.e. when doing dead lift that my exercises afterwards are harder and I'm a bit shaky..feel like I'm lacking energy. I take even deeper breaths to try and compensate on other lifts.

Your experiance is precisely what I meant.

You will have plenty of energy, the body switches to burn fat for fuel.
As for marathon runners, not really applicable. We are trying to conserve muscle tissue and lose fat, not run miles and miles and look like string beans.    

Bluenose17

Chrisla


You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.



I'm thinking of cutting carbs. Dya not think its harder to train weights without carbs. I've already reduced them and noticed on back days i.e. when doing dead lift that my exercises afterwards are harder and I'm a bit shaky..feel like I'm lacking energy. I take even deeper breaths to try and compensate on other lifts.

If you drop carbs, you need to replace the energy source with fats. I manage 4 sessions of high intensity training a week with 35mins cardio first thing 7days a week

Here is my current diet:

Meal 1.
 
6 eggs scrambled,
One large scoop PB
2000mg Omega 3
1000mg Evening Primrose Oil,
 Multi Vit

Meal 2.
 
2scoops Whey isolate
15ml Flax oil
1 psyllium husk
Meal 3.
200g chicken breast,
15ml EVOO
broccoli
2000mg Omega 3
1000mg Eve Primrose,

Meal 4.
2scoops Whey Isolate
2table spoons peanut butter
1 psyllium husk
 
 
Meal 5.
200g chicken breast
5 florets brocolli,
15ml EVOO

 

Meal 6.
6whole egg scrambled
1000mg Evening Primrose oil
2000mg Omega 3
large scoop of peanut butter

Chrisla


You will have plenty of energy, the body switches to burn fat for fuel.
As for marathon runners, not really applicable. We are trying to conserve muscle tissue and lose fat, not run miles and miles and look like string beans.    

Then can you give any examples of weightlifters or bodybuilders who lift massive weights on zero carb? Can you show us your own journel, maybe you are deadlifting 300kg+ on a zero carb diet, lets see this.

Don't bodybuilders diet down before the competition, they don't have 3-5% BF all year round. A keto diet could help a bodybuilder get in shape for a competition but how many eat like that 24/7 365 days a year?

Chrisla


You will have plenty of energy, the body switches to burn fat for fuel.




I see what you mean and think if I rest enough between sets my body can run off my fat reserves, but on big lifts like dead lifts and squats i'm a little sceptical as I think you will need to draw from your glycogen stores as these exercises tend to shoot your heart rate up thus your body needing to switch to carbs as a source (i,.e. glycogen)  as it can't metobolize fat quick enough thus me feeling weak and shaky?

Sh it man did it again. Responded in grey!

john93 - the whole point of Keto diets is that your brain goes into ketosis, meaning it will start to use ketone bodies (fats) for all its energy supplies (this is grossly, grossly oversimplified, but I don't even fully understand the physiological reasons for it myself). Generally speaking it should take a few days (minimum 48 hours, up to 4 days I think) before your brain goes into ketosis, which means for these first few days yes you will feel tired and lethargic because your body is not used to solely using fat for its energy and it will be missing carbs.

Simiarly as you say you have felt tired on low carb diets, the difference being with a low carb diet the brain still uses carbs as the body's primary energy source - and if you're not giving your body much carbs then obviously you won't have much energy. If you cut out carbs completely, then you force the brain into ketosis, it starts using fats for energy. I have heard many many reports of people feeling far more energised, in and out of the gym, when on this kind of diet.

john93

Then can you give any examples of weightlifters or bodybuilders who lift massive weights on zero carb?

Um, there aren't any...? If you're bulking/in your off season (bodybuilding) or you're a weightlifter or powerlifter training for strength, you need carbs.

Keto is used for losing weight/losing fat (ie. cutting). Nobody would use a no carb diet if they're trying to get bigger or stronger. The benefits of ketosis are that you can retain energy and therefore strength in the gym, it is an effective means of damage limitation when in a caloric deficit.

CitizenKane


john93 - the whole point of Keto diets is that your brain goes into ketosis, meaning it will start to use ketone bodies (fats) for all its energy supplies (this is grossly, grossly oversimplified, but I don't even fully understand the physiological reasons for it myself). Generally speaking it should take a few days (minimum 48 hours, up to 4 days I think) before your brain goes into ketosis, which means for these first few days yes you will feel tired and lethargic because your body is not used to solely using fat for its energy and it will be missing carbs.

Simiarly as you say you have felt tired on low carb diets, the difference being with a low carb diet the brain still uses carbs as the body's primary energy source - and if you're not giving your body much carbs then obviously you won't have much energy. If you cut out carbs completely, then you force the brain into ketosis, it starts using fats for energy. I have heard many many reports of people feeling far more energised, in and out of the gym, when on this kind of diet.

So you think in this Keto state you can carry on with heavy lifts such as dead lift? or do you cut the dead lift out on a cutting diet?

Of course you can keep lifting heavy on the big compounds.

Bare in mind this will be my first ever cut, but nonetheless: I believe when cutting it is important to continue lifting as heavy as you would normally. The body is capable of adapting to mad situations. I don't think it's possible to add muscle while in a caloric deficit, but I can't see any problem with maintaining strength. As long as your diet is in check and you're getting enough protein, I can't really see why not?

Well I suppose the only real way to find out is to try it. I'm planning on cutting carbs in April so will find out then. I just know as said earlier at the mo on a low carb diet I feel shaky and weak after deadlift. This as you say is prob down to the fact I am still using carbs as my energy source and have not reached this keto stage. i'm just a little sceptical about it thats all. Especially as your heart rate increases significantly during these heavy compound exercises which should mean your body can't simulate fat quick enough?

Strength will drop ever so slightly, but a lot of it is mental. Think you cna lift the weight and hammer it.
Don't think because dieting you should drop the poundages- use the same weights that got you the muscle in the first place and then you will minimise loss.

Just have a read on Dave Palumbo's keto diet and give it time to set in; only way to see if it works for you- nothing ventured, nothing gained.

CHRISLA - you really need to do some research into your comments before you post
 
granted the ketosis diet has benefits - but your comment that 'you dont need carbs' - thats again just diabolical
 
complex carbs are essential, even when losing fat! you cant train as efficiently with deplted muscle glycogen stores....
 
they help keep your blood sugar levels constant, this reduces fat storage and fatigue and promotes the release of insulin, essential for muscle development. 
 
PWO you NEEEEEDDDD a source of quick carbs straight away, the insulin spike generated helps to push your body into an anabolic state.

in response to the OP you do want to lower your amount - i would stick to a meal of carbs upon waking, possibly a small amount pre training and carbs in ur PWO shake - the remainder of ur meals i wud incorporate proteins and EFAs