Is there any point to doing biceps curls and triceps press-downs?

I keep reading that compound movements like rows, bench press, deads, etc put on the most mass and strength because they raise GH and testerone levels. So my question is- why bother doing any isolation exercises at all? Wouldn't they be counter productive? For example, I read that rows and chins work the biceps as much as curls. It is also well established that the big muscles e.g. back require more sets than the smaller muscles like biceps (which can be ovetrained more easily). So why would you add direct biceps exercises like curls if you're already doing rows, chin-ups, etc for the back? You'd be doing more sets for the biceps than the back.. And if you bench press and miltary press, wouldn't adding any tricep exercises like skull crushers and press-downs be overkill on the triceps? 
 
I struggle with this because I'm so used to having isolation movements in my routine that it would feel really weird only doing the compound movements but in theory, I would make better strength and size gains if I just got rid of the isolations like biceps curls, triceps press downs, lateral raises, etc and just concentrate on the rows, chins/pull-ups, bench press, miltary press, squats. and deads?
 
ps. I guess I also subscribe to the theory that there's no such thing as a "shaping exercise" because the muscle either grows or it doesn't and that the "shape" of the muscle is mainly due to genetics. So curls aren't going to make the biceps any more defined than doing chin-ups... I'm no expert on muscle physiology though so am open to different opinions on that as well. 
 
 
thanks,
 
chrism

I'm just about to go back onto a compound only routine and I find I get plenty of stress on the arms but I always like to go back to them.
Its not just about strenght but pumping the muscles as well!

There a re few people who can get good results from doing compound exercise only in regard to big bicep and triceps. 
Though even that group will normally get better results if they trian them directly even for a single set or two.
Personally I train my arms. If you think the above article will work.
Stop trianing your arms for say 3 month and see what happens to them.

I would not read to much into Gh release from trianing big exercises. That is probably another debate though.

Though trianing your arms will not significantly effect there definition.

You can get enough work through compounds, however most people like to add in a few isolations, me included to give muscles that bit of extra work.

I find i progress slightly better with isolations thrown in too anyway

I dont find that compound exercises hit the triceps or biceps anywhere near the amount that isolation exercises do.

It depends on the trainee. If you are 12 stone and have 11 inch arms then you would be better served paying more heed to compound movements until you put on some size. If you are a more advanced trainee then yes isolation movements will be of great value. Don't isolate it unless you can flex it without moving, you cant flex bone.

Nothing wrong with some 'isolation' lifts. As most have suggested earn your dues on the big lifts and add in a couple of  'isolation' lifts and see how you get on. Some people can get big arms from doing bugger all 'direct' work, some will need more direct work.

Okay, so it seems the general concensus here is that isolation movements are still recommended unless you are a beginner. So how many sets do you guys normally do for biceps and triceps? I'm just curious because it seems many of the routines posted on the routines forum on this site use far fewer sets than most routines I see competitive body builders and even recreational body builders use. The body building books and mags out there seem to suggest 16 sets for bis and tris whereas many of the routines posted here use much less than that. (But then, I take anything in fitness books and mags with a grain of salt.) So you guys think 6 sets would be enough for each bis and tris in addition to the compounds? (I would consider myself an intermediate lifter.)   I still want to add some mass and strength.

thanks,
ps. Just read some of the journals of the people who posted on ths thread. Looks like you guys do about 3-5 sets for bis and tris. That's a lot lower than what I usually see guys in the gym do which is usually about 12-16 sets (isolation movements). So is it truly a case of less is more?  Or perhaps 12-16 sets is only necessary if a person is on steroids?
 
 
chrism

You need to evaluate your own body as everybody is different. Myself, my arms have grown alot easier than other bodyparts, so I don't do do much isolation on arms. But it means when I bench press, my triceps always seem to do alot of work, so I need some chest isolation, i.e. flys, pec dec.

ChrisM


So how many sets do you guys normally do for biceps and triceps?

I tend to do 2 exercises for both, and tend to be around 4-6 sets in total

try different amounts on the of isolation to see what gains YOU get.

Though other variables. The more back and chest compound exercise you do, the less you have to do on your arms.

If you can work your arms through a full range of motion then a mixture of compound scould indeed work.

It seems that the longer your limbs the harder this is to accomplish.

so I guess the quesion you need to aks yourself is - do I have long limbs of short limbs?

Do you find you arms get tired/pumped after big pulling and pushing movments - if they do - game on - if not then isolate away pal.

I've never found much progress with compounds only, when it comes to bis, delts, pecs, or calves. My back, thighs, tris, traps all do fine without isolation. So, these days, I do isolations.

Its all about finding whats necessary for you.

From what I have seen (and read), assisted lifters seem to benefit more from higher volume routines. Naturals are probably better off in the region of 4-6 sets for arms.

JustTheFacts

If you can work your arms through a full range of motion then a mixture of compound scould indeed work.

It seems that the longer your limbs the harder this is to accomplish.

Please explain how that works? I can't see the logic of how limb length affects anything TBH.

Compound exercises will give you all the mass you want in tr's bi's if you train in the right way.

If you train with high intensity and quality over quantity approach you'll grow everywhere.

If your bangin out 10 reps with no failure it's not going to spark all round growth as much.

I only train compounds and my arms have grown, but after reading this thread I cant help thinking I should add some iso's.

I read a good article in t-nation by coach chris sommer, a gymnastics coach in america and he says none of his athletes do any isolation work for bi's or tri's..my arms get plenty of work doing compounds..for me doing isolations for arms would be a waste as i could be spending that time doing an exercise that work more than one body part..
 
try doing dumbell curls to overhead press..
try doing dips where you keep your body in line with your upper arms..so when your arms are at 90 degrees your body will be parallel to the ground..
 
just a couple of ideas of the top of my head