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Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet?

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AU1980
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2013/05/29 19:50:55 (permalink)

Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet?

What's the advantages/ disadvantages of each for cutting?
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    Calza
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 20:15:01 (permalink)
    Personally I find it very tiring being on the threshold of keto when cutting. No energy constant lethargy etc.

    Where as keto I'm full of beans!

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    rightyho
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 20:37:41 (permalink)
    Totally agree with Calza.
    Either run on fats or run on carbs.
    Trying to run on the cusp is horrible - cloudy head, lethargy etc.
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    makaveli1971 1996
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 20:49:09 (permalink)
    Ketosis diets make me laugh,you see people who run them so happy with the fat they've lost and the non existent water weight,yet they fail to realise they have lost just as much muscle on top,why not fuel your training with carbs instead of protein.

    If you love something let it go,if it comes back to you it's yours,if it doesn't it never was.
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    rightyho
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 20:51:28 (permalink)
    makaveli1971 1996

    Ketosis diets make me laugh,you see people who run them so happy with the fat they've lost and the non existent water weight,yet they fail to realise they have lost just as much muscle on top,why not fuel your training with carbs instead of protein.

    Completely disagree with that.
    Do it even 3/4 right and muscle loss will be minimal.
    #5
    Calza
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 20:57:42 (permalink)
    Care to back up that moronic claim?

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    rightyho
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 21:00:02 (permalink)
    Calza

    Care to back up that moronic claim?

    Presuming not moi?
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    makaveli1971 1996
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 21:12:35 (permalink)
    Yes, all the people I have seen run them look awfully ill after and the results look sh*te as opposed to those who gradually decrease carbs.
     
    And to have a load day of dounts etc is utterly stupid imo.
     
    Perhaps the people I have seen run them have got it wrong,although according to the guys in question they ran them pretty smart i.e high fat low protein no carbs to get into ketosis while gradually upping the protein % with 24 hour carb ups
     
    Really not a fan personally.

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    Calza
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 21:16:42 (permalink)
    I prefer a high protein approach. Never felt better than on that diet.

    Cheat meal weekly none of this junk day nonsense.

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    makaveli1971 1996
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/29 21:25:24 (permalink)
    To be fair I suppose they work better for some than others,experiment an see is the answer,and be sure to stick to it if you want to find out.
     
    I would advise carb cycling myself but that's me I'm sure many would advise keto over carb cycling.
     
    Try both and see what works for you.

    If you love something let it go,if it comes back to you it's yours,if it doesn't it never was.
    #10
    Calza
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 11:10:08 (permalink)
    That's a much more reasoned answer than the one you gave before 

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    Tony Barnes
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 11:45:24 (permalink)
    Mak I'm with Righty - a properly done keto will, IMO, result in close to zero muscle mass loss - why would it be sacrificial for muscle?
     
    My comp diet last year (keto with weekend refeed) at worst had me lose 4lbs muscle from a 38lb drop, at best I actually gained muscle (I only had a completely accurate end BF figure, start was a guesstimate, adding in +/-2% variance for BF guessing accuracy gave me a +/- 4lbs result).
     
    I'm doing a keto style bulk at the minute - weight is staying the same, waist is trimming up.
     
    If you want to do keto don't fanny about with pretty low carbs, it doesn't work, they have to be sub 40g, ideally lower.
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    jack5r
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 13:16:11 (permalink)
    I'm the opposite. Prefer to cut on higher carbs.

    Body Weight - 80kg 
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    Calza
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 13:17:17 (permalink)
    Tony Barnes

    If you want to do keto don't fanny about with pretty low carbs, it doesn't work, they have to be sub 40g, ideally lower.


     
    I was thinking sub 10g 

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    makaveli1971 1996
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 20:26:57 (permalink)
    Tony Barnes

    Mak I'm with Righty - a properly done keto will, IMO, result in close to zero muscle mass loss - why would it be sacrificial for muscle? 



    I think the adaptation phase can trigger much muscle loss for many,and also the people I have seen first hand run them,as previously stated, looked pretty naff,really flat small,wasn't the greatest look,and I've seen people with a far better package carb cycling.
     
    Don't get me wrong keto is interesting and if you feel you can get into ketosis and stick to it then I'd say go for it,but the worry for me would be adapting personally,when I could lose a good amount of body fat with moderate carb intake,as many do.
     
    It's trial and error like everything in this game.
     
    To add Tony there is a thread over in general regarding keto where papa states anything 100g and under is ketosis,surely that would be a little high,and not in ketosis?
     
    I would be interested to see your before and after results mate.

    If you love something let it go,if it comes back to you it's yours,if it doesn't it never was.
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    kinglean
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 22:45:59 (permalink)
    How are we all measuring this alleged 'muscle loss'?
     
    I have caliper tested thousands of individuals over the years and these muscle losses we are talking about tend to be water retention / less glycogen. 
     
    You will look flat and stringy when deep in keto, but the fat loss is amazing. 
     
    After a 2 day carb up I can look like a different person. Flat, stringy and smooth at 14st 4, 2 days later, 15st 2, full, vascular and cuts all over the place. 
     
    An analogy I try and use for my members when the caliper test shows losses of 'lean body mass' is one of a dry and wet sponge. 
     
    A dry sponge represents Ketosis, dried up, not holding anything, light. 
     
    A carb up is akin to dipping the sponge into water. The sponge becomes full, volumised and heavy. 
     
    The sponge has not grown or lost size, it is the same as it was prior, its just holding more (or less) depending on dietary protocol. 
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    Jax Demon
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/30 22:56:16 (permalink)
    kinglean

    How are we all measuring this alleged 'muscle loss'?

    I have caliper tested thousands of individuals over the years and these muscle losses we are talking about tend to be water retention / less glycogen. 

    You will look flat and stringy when deep in keto, but the fat loss is amazing. 

    After a 2 day carb up I can look like a different person. Flat, stringy and smooth at 14st 4, 2 days later, 15st 2, full, vascular and cuts all over the place. 

    An analogy I try and use for my members when the caliper test shows losses of 'lean body mass' is one of a dry and wet sponge. 

    A dry sponge represents Ketosis, dried up, not holding anything, light. 

    A carb up is akin to dipping the sponge into water. The sponge becomes full, volumised and heavy. 

    The sponge has not grown or lost size, it is the same as it was prior, its just holding more (or less) depending on dietary protocol. 

     
    Quality post btw. Love that analogy. 
     
    For someone like me who used to pile in loads of junk food daily, I've adapted quite well in fact I've embraced the change. I know where I want to be and I'm motivated. Also I don't get as hungry as I used to any more. I'm now in a position where I can hold off and eat what I'm supposed to be eating. Not filling my face full of crap and I'm loving every minute of it. 

    My Progress Journal - 6 Months progress pics added page 13.  
     
    http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/Shock-to-the-System-Progress-pics-page-13-m5048826.aspx
    #17
    Tony Barnes
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/05/31 09:32:20 (permalink)
    Calza
    I was thinking sub 10g 

    I aim for sub 30, typically hit sub 10 most keto days.
     
    makaveli1971 1996
    I think the adaptation phase can trigger much muscle loss for many,and also the people I have seen first hand run them,as previously stated, looked pretty naff,really flat small,wasn't the greatest look,and I've seen people with a far better package carb cycling.
    Keto is pretty much by definition going to be muscle sparing, so I guess something else is afoot in what they are up to???
    makaveli1971 1996
    Don't get me wrong keto is interesting and if you feel you can get into ketosis and stick to it then I'd say go for it,but the worry for me would be adapting personally,when I could lose a good amount of body fat with moderate carb intake,as many do.
    True - many ways to skin a cat. A weeklong keto with 1 day (or even 1 meal!) refeed is spot on for me. I am very fat adapted though, and that is from having high fat for a long period. Thing is anyone can get there, and once better equipped as using fat as a fuel, the easier it is to lose
    makaveli1971 1996
    It's trial and error like everything in this game.
    True!
    makaveli1971 1996

    To add Tony there is a thread over in general regarding keto where papa states anything 100g and under is ketosis,surely that would be a little high,and not in ketosis?
    It will depend on the person, and size will come into it a bit, so Papa could be fine on 100g, it would be too high for my liking personally. Essentailly as the brain canes glucose and will get preferential treatment in that respect, in theory you could go up to 130g (brain daily requirement) and still be in keto - in practice, why sail so close to the wind? Better to get brain to use ketones as a fuel IMO
    makaveli1971 1996
    I would be interested to see your before and after results mate.

     
    Let me know if these pics show up, from FB so might not
     
    This was about 5 months before I started dieting? Anyway I was fatter than this

     
    5 weeks out from first show, following a massive meal out (this is probably around my 'best' look, healthy but still very lean, might try to stay like this year round TBH, just need a bit of discpline)

     
    1.5 weeks from first show, zero carbs in me, around my lowest weight

     
    Night before second show, having been nailing in the carbs (over 1kg carbs in at this point) - about 3kg heavier than previous shot

    kinglean

    How are we all measuring this alleged 'muscle loss'?

    I have caliper tested thousands of individuals over the years and these muscle losses we are talking about tend to be water retention / less glycogen. 

    You will look flat and stringy when deep in keto, but the fat loss is amazing. 

    After a 2 day carb up I can look like a different person. Flat, stringy and smooth at 14st 4, 2 days later, 15st 2, full, vascular and cuts all over the place. 

    An analogy I try and use for my members when the caliper test shows losses of 'lean body mass' is one of a dry and wet sponge. 

    A dry sponge represents Ketosis, dried up, not holding anything, light. 

    A carb up is akin to dipping the sponge into water. The sponge becomes full, volumised and heavy. 

    The sponge has not grown or lost size, it is the same as it was prior, its just holding more (or less) depending on dietary protocol. 

     
    Nice post
    #18
    Nigeepoo
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/06/03 15:23:11 (permalink)
    Tony BarnesKeto is pretty much by definition going to be muscle sparing...
    Not necessarily. If the body burns carbs below a certain rate (by not over-training/exercising), everything's fine. The liver & kidneys synthesise sufficient glucose from glycerol, lactate & pyruvate.
     
    If the body burns carbs above a certain rate (by over-training/exercising and don't ask me what that rate is, 'cos it varies from person to person), the liver & kidneys have to synthesise extra glucose from glucogenic amino acids obtained from...LBM!
     
    When this happens, serum cortisol & adrenaline tend to be high, so there will be a degree of water retention and agitation/poor sleep.
    post edited by Nigeepoo - 2013/06/03 15:24:33
    #19
    Tony Barnes
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    Re:Low carb diet(around 80g per day) vs ketogenic diet? 2013/06/03 17:08:03 (permalink)
    Ah, true - I'm talking about BB training, practically impossible to overtrain IMO. If you're out doing marathon training daily you'd hit an issue.

    Also I don't feel using LBM for GNG isn't too much of an issue either if diet ok - you've got an amino pool for a reason, and as you will be topping up through the day, all good. In fact... beyond that, would the liver/kidneys not also be happily making glucose from circulating aminos from meals that day? In a total fasting state this would obviously change, but non-fasting?
    #20
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