Sit ups/Crunches Bad?

My chiropractor recently told me sit ups and crunches should pretty much be banned from a gym users routine due to overloading the Lumbar vertibre?
 
Is this true or just another one of them bogus claims people tend to say to scare you out of training?

Yeah I would agree with that and you don't need to train abs to see em but lose fat, and if you do compound exercises you would be hitting them indirectly and naturally

^as above.
 
They're not bad in such a dramatic way, but they do put flexion into the lower spine and there are much better ways of engaging the abs, so why bother?
 
Squats, deads, lunges etc all engage the abs better than crunches and sit ups, as does simply running - especially on uneven ground.
 
Kettle training and all that cross fit stuff are also great for ab recruitment.

Thanks guys!
 
I do the above exercises however apart from front/side planks what other exercises isolate the core fully?

THE most important questions are

• are you stacked up safely enough to do core work in the first place?
• what are your training goals?
• which exercises are most effective for those training goals?

So most people are looking for a 'tight' mid section with some definition or at least a flat tummy. You can only really achieve the defined or flat look with below 19% BF or less. As for a 'tight' or strong mid section the large compound exercises Bollard has mentioned will do that.
Many of us have biomechanical asymmetry that means core work could be harmful to our mechanical performance. What I mean by this is that if you have an unlevel pelvis or spine and do core training upon this you will in fact be stabilising yourself in that position, the wrong position. This more often than not results in low grade aches and niggles initially. Then if you persist this can translate into wear and tear and eventually if you still continue could result in injury as the body complains.
So I dont want to come across negative BUT many people are not READY for traditional 'core' work and therefore should be screened by a qualified professional who can tell you WHEN exactly your are ready.
 
With regards to crunches and sit ups these exercises only encourage and strengthen  spinal flexion or poor posture, the rounded back look. They will encourage more of a pot bellied look and are only useful IF your sport requires your to flex repeatedly over and over again.
If your sport requires you to flex your spine repeatedly then there maybe an argument for sit ups and crunches BUT if your sport did require this then you would probably be better off training the entire trunk and then practicing the sport itself rather than lying on the floor and crunching - do you agree?

some good points rachfit... thank you for your info! :)
 
its just you go to a gym and theres stupid amounts of people doing crunches, ab rollers, abdominal crunch machines, full sit ups. Then adding medicine balls/fitballs to them, then classes, boxing clubs etc all work with these 'wrong' exercises and you never know what to believe.
 
I do alot of compound lifts and exercises but was wondering what other floor based abs/core exercises are good and 'safe' but effective? sort of on the lines of planks etc?

come on mate what u reckon is going to give you a stronger core, dead lifting a massive weight or doing a plank?

I know deads and planks will both strengthern, im not asking that. Im asking what floor based exercises are good for the core.

 

northeastbeast09


some good points rachfit... thank you for your info! :)

its just you go to a gym and theres stupid amounts of people doing crunches, ab rollers, abdominal crunch machines, full sit ups. Then adding medicine balls/fitballs to them, then classes, boxing clubs etc all work with these 'wrong' exercises and you never know what to believe.

I do alot of compound lifts and exercises but was wondering what other floor based abs/core exercises are good and 'safe' but effective? sort of on the lines of planks etc?

one of the most important things about exercise choice is the reason behind them. If it is because everyone at the gym does them then its probably not the best idea. if you understand what an exercise will achieve and also the risks this will help you to make an informed decision yourself with logic rather than just take someones word for it. Hence my preference in offering reasoning and an insight into my thought process rather than just an answer.
Ultimately it is impossible for me to accurately prescribe you any exercises as I have not taken you through a full screening process and medical history questionnaire. This is why my repsonse will be generic and broad rather than direct I am afraid mate.
 

• If your pelvis is unlevel you should NOT perform any direct 'core' training for the reasons I stated above.
• If you have just levelled your pelvis with release techniques then there are bracing techniques that will help regain true core stability, will describe this later
• If you have a level pelvis and your trunk is well conditioned then your compound work could be enough for the activies you perform if they merely relate to the compound exercises
• if you simply want a defined set of abs then you should look at your diet
• if you have a specific sporting activity to train for this may dictate which trunk training is most appropriate

The bracing technique I mentioned earlier starts in crook lying and requires challenging the trunk and pelvic stability by moving the limbs and progressing via neuro muscular concepts. It then goes to prone kneeling and both positions require a neutral spine and varying degrees of muscular contraction from low to 100%. This could include some plank type exercises at some point in the advanced stages of training but the plank is a very advanced method in neuro muscular terms as it also highlights shoulder and pelvis instability and spinal issues.
Prof Stuart McGill's book 'ulitmate back fitness and performance' has a lot of information based upon his research into trunk/spine and pelvic conditioning.. 
 
...but I am afraid it is not a simple quick answer if I am to be honest mate, I just hope this helps towards a bit more understanding

northeastbeast09


My chiropractor recently told me sit ups and crunches should pretty much be banned from a gym users routine due to overloading the Lumbar vertibre?

Is this true or just another one of them bogus claims people tend to say to scare you out of training?

 
alot of ppl do them wrong and causes too much stress on there spine and neck from curling the spine too much,
 
i think ab rollers should be banned, alot of people push with hands which cranks there neck too much, i like the ab wheel tho what you roll out sort of like a plank movement 

northeastbeast09


I know deads and planks will both strengthern, im not asking that. Im asking what floor based exercises are good for the core.

I can't really answer the question without going back to the original point, the best core activation exercises are not floor based.
 
Personally I wouldn't be so intent on doing floor based core exercises for the sake of it. If you concentrate on your big movements - squats especially - there's really no need.
 
Why shoehorn an exercise into a programme that is not as good as something else that does the same thing?  It's kind of like saying, "I'm going to do this wrong anyway, so whats the best way to do it wrong?"

Bollard

northeastbeast09


I know deads and planks will both strengthern, im not asking that. Im asking what floor based exercises are good for the core.

I can't really answer the question without going back to the original point, the best core activation exercises are not floor based.

Personally I wouldn't be so intent on doing floor based core exercises for the sake of it. If you concentrate on your big movements - squats especially - there's really no need.

Why shoehorn an exercise into a programme that is not as good as something else that does the same thing?  It's kind of like saying, "I'm going to do this wrong anyway, so whats the best way to do it wrong?"

^^^lol

bollard

 
 

Personally I wouldn't be so intent on doing floor based core exercises for the sake of it.
Why shoehorn an exercise into a programme that is not as good as something else that does the same thing?  It's kind of like saying, "I'm going to do this wrong anyway, so whats the best way to do it wrong?"

 
  
id agree!

 the last part is one of THE most frustrating things in gyms!
some core work, whatever its based on could be usefull, but you dont have to do something just because everyone else is!

I assume when you're saying floor based exercises aren't best you're doing so in the manner they're not at the top end of core exercises, rather than poo poo'ing them altogether?

Ak_88


I assume when you're saying floor based exercises aren't best you're doing so in the manner they're not at the top end of core exercises, rather than poo poo'ing them altogether?

this is a post i just wrote in another thread about the trunk conditioning progressions i would advise......
IF something is unstable why would you de-stabilise it further? This is asking for an injury to happen because IF the deep trunk muscles are nor firing correctly then they wont be the ones doing the stabilising, the global muscles will have to do it instead. This leads to premature fatigue of these global muscles and a higher risk of them failing and you gaining an injury.
So the sensible progression is this:

• ensure you musculoskeletal system is level and moving freely first.
• next challenge your deep trunk musculature on a stable surface using the usual muscular progressions ie floor flat on your back to start (not crunching btw try bracing instead)
• once you have trained your deep core to work through all of these progressions (and there are hundreds) then you might, if it is appropriate add some de-stabilisation

BUT if you do this last phase too soon you could be setting yourself up for an injury, if not now, then later on.

Ak_88


I assume when you're saying floor based exercises aren't best you're doing so in the manner they're not at the top end of core exercises, rather than poo poo'ing them altogether?

 
situps and crunches were mentioned at the begining, so i think its more related to spinal flexion/extension type moves, or thats how i saw it anyway.
 
There are some very good floor based core exercises, but wether they are necessary, or should be included is down to the individual, and impossible to advise over the internet!

a missing point is that we all need to start with the basics and condition the trunk in the same way we do the rest of our muscles.
the problem is people generally dont start with the most basic trunk conditioning routine but start with the hard stuff thinking the harder the better.
Simple low level contractions building to simple high level contractions before moving onto slightly harder levels with low then higher contractions and eventually to harder levels with varied muscular contractions.
The challenge should not just be with the degree of muscular contraction but should also include neuro-muscular challenges in their correct progressions
 
the BIGGEST missing point in everyones schedule is giving themselves the CAPACITY to fully engage the deep trunk muscles in the first place.
Many of us have asymmetrys and imbalances that traditional 'core' work only enhance!!!! and more often than not they are REALLY easy to correct with adherence to the correct programme .... no wonder low back pain is on the rise with all of the 'core' training methods being taken out of their progressions and being done on unlevel intrinsics!!!!!
 
...sorry I am feeling like I am 'on one'!!!!!