Tiredness and the debate theory for the experts.

Is this statement true.
 
"The amount of growth is in direct proportion to the amount of pain you can withstand both in AND outside of the gym"
 
Knowing this I use mild pain as my confirmation growth is about to occur. And larger more debilitating pain as a cue to rest completely.
 
I take 40g of protein 4 - 5 times a day and train every day. My rest days are defined by pain in the muscles.  I use this as my body barometer, whilst maintaining training on non pain days. I also avoid training any body part that has mild discomfort.
 
Please can we discuss
 
a. Your levels of pain during and after training.
 
b. Your view on my statement's truth or inaccuracy notwithstanding diet and nutrition, this is just about the pain theories and experiences you have.
 
Love always.
 
 
 

Well I am tired atm so its going to be brief. However the statment is not true. 'Pain' dose not equate to muscle growth.  If we are talking about DOMS it dose not mean the muscle has not recovered enough to train again. Futher 'pain' is a subjective factor and people may have the same amount of stress applied and same response to the stress but feel different level of pain.
 
Recovery process do not revolve around one factor (in this case DOMS aka an inflammatory response). It complicated, and not my area, but using some que to autoregulate is not a bad idea at all.

So 2 things, the first one:
 
Is your stated 40g of protein from a shakes / supplements only? If so, start to replace that with real food. We all use shakes etc but you should be getting most of your protein from food. My mate (a guy who's been bodybuilding for 10 years) has actually just given up shakes altogether and has seen his overall condition improve drastically - this doesn't mean we should all just ditch them, but they should only be a convenient way of upping your protein intake and not the main source of it.
 
Secondly, DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) are a strange one. Way back when I was doing my 'A' levels (some 20 odd years ago) it was pretty cut and dried that DOMS were tiny rips in the muscle fibres, that were healing (and hence growing) after training - and that this was the indicator that the muscle was getting bigger and stronger. After this there was a theory that the pain was musclular inflammation. Then it was a chemical imbalance caused by depleted glycogen in the muscles after training. Then something that I never fully understood about calcium levels in the muscle. Now it seems to be back to the tiny rips again. Can you see where I'm going with this ... ?
 
DOMS are whatever the latest bit of research says they are.
 
Are they an indicator you're workout was good and that you're growing?
 Almost certainly not.
 
They are though, one of the indicators that your muscles have worked in some way, but it's more to do with them doing something different than how hard they've worked, that's why when you change your routine a bit or try a new exercise the DOMS come back with a vengeance.
 
Further to this, DOMS are affected by diet, rest, sleep, alcohol, stress etc so even if they were the proof of your muscles growing, there are just too many factors involved to make them a good indicator.

A mate of mine used to suffer (and I do mean suffer) very badly with DOMS after EVERY workout, next morning after legs day he walked like he had a crab up his ar5e.
 
Since he went on his first cut after 3 years bulking, he kept exactly the same routine but did 20 minutes cardio immediately afterwards, almost from day one doing this his DOMS have virtually gone away.
 
I have no idea why this is the case, he thinks it's to do with helping remove lactic acid and keeping the blood flow to the muscles higher after a workout, but he believes every bit of bro science ever written.
 
 

I do agree that cardio after a work out does reduce DOMS, I too experience this provided the cardio is moderate. My theory is that the muscles are provided with more oxygenated blood supplies. Good call.

Often after a heavy legs day followed by no cardio and a long drive. I am unable to get out of the car without looking like an imbecile. I often find stopping for a short walk helps. ( Or perhaps a spot of dogging ) Anyway back to the debate. 
 
@Bollard
 
This is concerning as it seems you are disputing the statement that pain does not equate growth, and thus more pain equals more growth.This is alarming albeit clearly a valid view.
 
Let me clarify my interpretation of pain.
 
Pain = Sum of Failure in the Gym + Dieting + DOMS + Physcological factors.
 
Now granted we have to understand that when pain becomes "cant sit down on the toilet without using hands, or cant get out of the car pain" is possibly, OR NOT, overtraining, and what you experts might call "sunburn" - But a more healthy pain, such as that associated with mild to medium pain when depressing the muscle is indicative, OR SO I THOUGHT, that the muscle was about to begin repair and growth. 
 
It therefore stands to reason that the regularity of the pain you can endure, i.e. how often you can put up with this mild DOMS has an effect on the results in the gym.
 
For example I often feel that my body or a proportion of it, is in a constant state of growth, repair or pain each day of the week. This is not debilitating, but I am often wondering when a day might come that I can use my body without pain for some gardening ( or a spot of dogging )
 
This is where my theory began. I look at you Spartans and I wander how much pain has led to the shape and size of your muscle, and if pain is not a barometer to govern cessation periods then what is?
 
There is one man who trains at my gym who claims he trains every day - he denied vehemently ever experiencing any DOMS, or any illness or tired days where you just want to crash and shut your eyes.
 
In my case I am at least AWARE of my triceps when I am training my biceps and am AWARE of my quads when I am training my hamstrings. And it has become my belief system through trial and error that you can rotate around the body , navigating around those slightly sore muscles. ( hence split days )
 
So if the theory is not attributed to some form of pain notification or management what does constitute your particular understanding that you are correctly performing for optimization?
 
Surely walking in the door and lifting x kg x times until it sort of feels like enough and going back when you feel like it is likely to lead to very slow if at all results for many of you athletes.
 
So what are your indicators?
 
And yes on average I have 1 shake a day. And work between 150-200g per day on a good day eggs, chicken, beef, bacon.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Stormbitch


- But a more healthy pain, such as that associated with mild to medium pain when depressing the muscle is indicative, OR SO I THOUGHT, that the muscle was about to begin repair and growth. 

no DOMS is just an indicator that you have done something different,ie if you go out and run and your not used to it,you will get DOMS,if you took two tins of beans and did 1000 side lateral raises most likely you would have DOMS the next day,but i doubt you would get much growth.

There is one man who trains at my gym who claims he trains every day - he denied vehemently ever experiencing any DOMS,

thats because he trains everyday, ie he isnt doing anything different.
 

I see this but if pain or DOMS does not equal progress what is your barometer.
 

Stormbitch


I see this but if pain or DOMS does not equal progress what is your barometer.

 
DOMS are very individual, some people seems to get them all the time, some don't get them much at all.
I don't believe DOMS are any kind of measure of progress.
 
 
Progress, however, can be easily measured by;
 
The scales
A tape measure
The mirror
Your journal showing how much more you are lifting
More people commenting on your improving physique
 
 

"The amount of growth is in direct proportion to the amount of pain you can withstand both in AND outside of the gym"
 
NO.
 
Growth is down to many factors, 3 main factors, Training is only 1, which is the cause of the PAIN your referring to. Yes PAIN is linked to growth as you need to go through pain barriers whether it is an extra rep, extra weight or less rest when your body is screaming not too.
PAIN outside the gym and growth is down to many factors, diet, rest, sleep, stress, inconstancy of all the factors.
Trainers that are efficient in all factors, seem to get very little pain where they are so consistent and working efficiently, ie growing......for example if they were to have a week off diet, training, lack of sleep, extra stress then come back and train at 50% of there normal intensity will experience DOMS and pain outside the gym, this does not mean now they are growing more than when they was consistent and efficient.    

Measuring progress by parameters is simple, but it depends on the aims:
 
A sprinter measures progress by how fast they sprint
A powerlifter by how much they lift on deads, squats and bench
A bodybuilder on size, symmetry and bodyfat %
 
etc etc.
 
Most people who train as a hobby / lifestyle / health choice will use a combination of the mirror and their lifting / training performance to measure progress. Can I lift more on this or that lift? Can I do extra reps on this or that lift? Can I run on the treadmill for 25 mins?
 
etc etc
 
Pain / failure may well be part of the process for most, but even that is debatable. There are a number of different approaches to training to achieve desired results, yes it should be hard work, but no, it doesn't HAVE to hurt. Again, it all depends on aims.
 
DOMS, as mentioned above, are also part of the process, but certainly not a definitive measure.

Very interesting posts.
My theory is clearly flawed but if i may simplify.
 
A man walks into the gym and begins training body parts.
He lifts till it hurts or till it fails and cannot lift any more.
 
Correct?
 
This man then will go home and eat and rest considerably.
The next day the muscle fibres will be torn and re building takes place. Each time the rebuild takes place the muscles adapt, or in turn grow.
 
Correct?
 
If a man was not experiencing any DOMS then it stands to reason the man would not know if he was progressing, i.e. training. For instance if his triceps did not hurt, he could do them to failure every day and potentially damage or overtrain the muscle.
 
Correct?
 
The reason we wait is to allow muscles to repair. And with the absense of pain, what is our barometer of "rested and ready" Surely a random number of 36-72 hours must not follow for all men.
 
Another way of putting my case forward or question is that.
 
If I train so that my body feels no pain, how can I possibly grow? Are you saying that training can be done without pain?
 
I E - Lifting to mild failure for 2 weeks and then trying heavier weights?
 
A competition person I know says that when he trains he absolutely destroys the muscle and often the next day or two days he is in significant pain. He was bemused by my question but overall agreed that loosely speaking my statement was fairly true.
 
That said, if you are not living in a constant state of "repair" then maybe I am doing too much too fast.
 
For example - when doing legs I like to push to failure - then stop - even though I know I could rest and do more in 10 minutes. I am thus able to walk albeit quite sore.
 
If I do what Steven77 says, then I call that beyond failure and feel that I am debilitated. The balancing act that I try to adopt is one that allows me to train to failure but before delibilitation. I call this DAU Debilitated and Useless.
 
In other words therefore outside of the gym I am constantly experiencing manageable discomfort in one or more muscle parts.
 
Poached eggs - However did thwart my theory as some people do not suffer at all. I find this hard to beleive as the body is the body. Surely those that do not suffer DOMS are either training under their potential threshold or are made of metal or are under some form of drug enhancement. The body to not suffer pain after trauma is nigh on impossible surely. 
  
 
PS - My aims are to have legs like oak trees and arms that scare wild animals but a very lean torso.
 

PPS @enigma - jesus christ is that you... you should have the exact answer.... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What an athlete

Stormbitch


PPS @enigma - jesus christ is that you... you should have the exact answer.... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What an athlete

AVI is jean-claude van damme when he won the junior belgium bodybuilding championship.
 
 

WOW - Intellect - Knowledge and expertise. Stunned.
 
So.
 
Firstly thank you SO much for helping shed some light.
 
Secondly I have some questions.
 
1. Can a man re train a muscle when it is sore?
 
2. Do you agree that DOMS is not an indicator that the body is improving. Yet confirmation that exercise has taken place.
 
3. Is it best to ignore this principal and train when I feel that my body is ready. Listen to the body.
 
4. Is it more sensible to measure progress by other factors. Such as recovery time, heavier weights, looking better in and out of clothes.
 
5. I am right to assume that I must push myself to failure on those body parts I feel need the most attention.
 
You should be proud of your amazing knowledge and kindness.

Push yourself on every body part, listen to your body, set your self goals, goal setting helps progression. Have a goal, stick to it, and see it out, once completed, assess and then conclude progression.

Stormbitch


WOW - Intellect - Knowledge and expertise. Stunned.

So.

Firstly thank you SO much for helping shed some light.

Secondly I have some questions.

1. Can a man re train a muscle when it is sore?

2. Do you agree that DOMS is not an indicator that the body is improving. Yet confirmation that exercise has taken place.

3. Is it best to ignore this principal and train when I feel that my body is ready. Listen to the body.

4. Is it more sensible to measure progress by other factors. Such as recovery time, heavier weights, looking better in and out of clothes.

5. I am right to assume that I must push myself to failure on those body parts I feel need the most attention.

You should be proud of your amazing knowledge and kindness.

1) You can train a muscle when soar. Read some of iank post who often mentions this in more detail.
 
2) I agree with that.
 
3) i would sya find a routine and see how it goes. if routine working keep on it.
 
4) yep. measure progress of how you are getting nearer to your goal.
 
5) failure is one method of trianing. Doing eg higher volume at reduced intensity may be better etc. Some times less could be more. eg if i squats lots it can leave me with a soar lower back. If this is still soar when i next train i may get less reps/weight as back seezes up. Thus my legs do not get worked as hard. If I had done a few sets less last session my back would have been fine and been able to push it harder this session.

1. Yes
 
2. Yes, moreso, it's one of the indications that the muscle has done something different. Beware though, DOMS are affected by other factors (diet, alcohol, sleep etc etc etc)
 
3. Listening to the body is always good - it's fair enough to use many training principles, but at the end of the day you'll find your own groove
 
4. Yes. Or whatever your own specific goals are.
 
5. NO!  Failure is one of the ways to train, but lagging bodyparts tend to be genetic so you're better off trainng the whole body with balance. If you want to use failure that is fine, btu use it for everything. If you want to work another method that's also fine - but do it with balance. There is an argument that is very valid floating around that means you structure your session so your weakest bodyparts have the biggest rests, which is a logical approach.
6. Get a decent training, diet and rest programme together and don't overthink it.