Training chest for shape and overall thickness

 
Hi all,
I have felt my overall shape and thickness has been lacking in my chest. I have specifically been trying to build up the middle part closest to the sternum and bottom part to help improve overall shape, but I don't feel like i'm seeing the gains I should be. I have been focusing on close grip bench press and weighted dips, I should probably have been doing more decline bench I must admit.
 
I have noticed on a similar post's people have been advising to train chest twice a week so I may start doing this and see how it goes thought sometimes its tricky trying to fit everything in.
 
Any ideas on wats best??
 
P.S.  I was talking to some guy down the gym just recently who was similar size to me and was quite impressed by his unassisted dumbbell press he apparently doesn't take any stim supps or creatine but swears by doing squats before any chest training and has seen massive gains. Personally I was thinking yeah ok.. but maybe there is something I'm missing out on here!?

You can't shape or target certain parts of a muscle (ie middle). You can only make the muscle bigger as a whole and it will take on its genetically predetermined shape.

If you want your chest to look more defined or shaped, then lose body fat.

CitizenKane


You can't shape or target certain parts of a muscle (ie middle). You can only make the muscle bigger as a whole and it will take on its genetically predetermined shape.

If you want your chest to look more defined or shaped, then lose body fat.

 
Interesting opinion... So your suggesting that doing an exercise for example say, cable crossover's which mainly works the inner i.e middle part of the chest would not provide that area of the muscle to be developed???
 

pt man

CitizenKane


You can't shape or target certain parts of a muscle (ie middle). You can only make the muscle bigger as a whole and it will take on its genetically predetermined shape.

If you want your chest to look more defined or shaped, then lose body fat.

Interesting opinion... So your suggesting that doing an exercise for example say, cable crossover's which mainly works the inner i.e middle part of the chest would not provide that area of the muscle to be developed???

 
It isn't an opinion I'm afraid.

Close Grip bench is going to target your triceps and so will dips unless they are done leaning forward with a wide grip.
 
Try low incline D/B pressing instead of close grip bench..

for the larger part muscles either get bigger or smaller. you loose or gain fat.
Thats about that all that happens.
Now if your 20 stone with under 10% body fat  you can probably alter how you train and your chest may look a little different. If your 12 stone with 15% bf it probably not make much difference.
 
also trianing other muscles like shoulder and lats will help hold the chest better in place.
 

Hi mate, thanks for PM and I would like to tell you that using a particular exercise will develop certain areas of the pectoral muscles more than others, however that would not be technically accurate.
Certain movements will feel like they hit the muscles in different ways due to changes in angles of joints and the involvement of other muscles.
So as stated above predisposed genetics is one of the influencing factors of the developement of a muscle and its shape but by no means the only one.
 
Another thought to consider if there maybe something not allowing the muscle to develop fully rather than that you are doing something wrong. What I mean by that is that some muscles can get to a point where they cant remember how to relax (sub clinical muscle spasm). This can be down to a variety of reasons like long periods at a computer, driving, posture, previous injury or a combination of these.
 
This type of dysfunction may not be something you are physically aware of other than the fact your chest isnt developing in the way you would like (ie. there is no pain).
The pec minor, which attaches from the 3rd, 4th, 5th rib to the corcoid process is reponsible for shoulder protraction a depression. It is a very commonly dysfunctional muscle and can create problems in chest development due to limiting ranges meaning compensations will occur during movement. Also if it cant remember how to fully relax its ability to grow is likely to be hindered.
 
Now please understand this is all just information, I am not suggesting this is the reason you are not getting the gains you desire, just offering another train of thought.
The only way to know is to get yourself physically assessed for any biomechanical issues, then if you get a positive result follow the programme and see if the techniques help.
 
Hope this is helpful mate

pt man

CitizenKane


You can't shape or target certain parts of a muscle (ie middle). You can only make the muscle bigger as a whole and it will take on its genetically predetermined shape.

If you want your chest to look more defined or shaped, then lose body fat.

Interesting opinion... So your suggesting that doing an exercise for example say, cable crossover's which mainly works the inner i.e middle part of the chest would not provide that area of the muscle to be developed???

It doesn't work the inner part, if we could target inner or outer parts then great, but as the fibres of the pectoralis major run in pretty much a horizontal direction then we cant target inner or outer as the whole fibre must contract or not contract at all.
It can be argued that the upper chest can be emphasized through movements such as incline pressing, but again it will also hit the whole pectoral muscle rather than just the top.
 
Anyway development of your chest will come down to many factors, as pointed out by rach and CK, unfortunately some parts dont develop as well as others but just keep going and working hard

if anyone tells you that you can spot grow certain sections of an individual muscle I would be very interested in how ohysiologically that would happen and how they have come to that decision. I suspect it would be because someone else told them.
 
This highlights just on of the common myths given out as truth in gyms all over the UK.
 
 

 
Yeah, I see your points and agree the whole chest muscle contracts in any chest excercise however in certains excercises like cable cross over's the area 'mainly' worked should be the inner. If done correctly or you will bring the deltoid into play... if this is wrong regarding this excercise then most literature on this movement is wrong (I am not denying the whole muscle will ultimatley contract due to its structure).
 
I would also argue that incline press would work the upper chest otherwise why do we even bother doing these isolation excercise like incline bench. Wouldnt we all be doing push ups if this was the case?
 

pt man



I would also argue that incline press would work the upper chest otherwise why do we even bother doing these isolation excercise like incline bench. Wouldnt we all be doing push ups if this was the case?

one of the orginal reasons for the incline bench press was to help olympic lifter with their over head press. they would start would slowly increase the angle to upright with a weight.
plius if people feel it working they will carry on.
Also doing incline bench press will also help the chest grow as well.

what I would like to see if the following
 
some one with a eg poor inner chest but good outer, upper etc who has only done eg flat bench press for a long time.
Then change to say doing all cable cross over for 6 months.
 
Then see the before and after pics.
With all these debates lots of people say I changed the shape of my chest by doing this exercise etc.
But you do not see any photo evidence of this. From the amount of people claiming these changes, it should be easy for some photo evidence?
 

pt man


 
Yeah, I see your points and agree the whole chest muscle contracts in any chest excercise however in certains excercises like cable cross over's the area 'mainly' worked should be the inner. If done correctly or you will bring the deltoid into play... if this is wrong regarding this excercise then most literature on this movement is wrong (I am not denying the whole muscle will ultimatley contract due to its structure).

I would also argue that incline press would work the upper chest otherwise why do we even bother doing these isolation excercise like incline bench. Wouldnt we all be doing push ups if this was the case?

 I respect your point of view, but if there is some peer reviewed literature that does actually back this up I would be interested to see it as I dont see how it can be possible in that there is a rule of anatomy in that a whole muscle fibre can contract or not contract at all, therefore I would think it extremely unlikely that part of a muscle fibre (ie the more central 1/3rd) could contract more than another part of a fibre.
Like I said if there is any hard evidence to prove me, and others, wrong on this I would be very interested to see it

stephen77


what I would like to see if the following

some one with a eg poor inner chest but good outer, upper etc who has only done eg flat bench press for a long time.
Then change to say doing all cable cross over for 6 months.

Then see the before and after pics.
With all these debates lots of people say I changed the shape of my chest by doing this exercise etc.
But you do not see any photo evidence of this. From the amount of people claiming these changes, it should be easy for some photo evidence?

Did you have a similar problem then? You mentioned photo evidence, did you provide any photoes to show changes/development?
 

naththebeast

pt man



Yeah, I see your points and agree the whole chest muscle contracts in any chest excercise however in certains excercises like cable cross over's the area 'mainly' worked should be the inner. If done correctly or you will bring the deltoid into play... if this is wrong regarding this excercise then most literature on this movement is wrong (I am not denying the whole muscle will ultimatley contract due to its structure).

I would also argue that incline press would work the upper chest otherwise why do we even bother doing these isolation excercise like incline bench. Wouldnt we all be doing push ups if this was the case?

I respect your point of view, but if there is some peer reviewed literature that does actually back this up I would be interested to see it as I dont see how it can be possible in that there is a rule of anatomy in that a whole muscle fibre can contract or not contract at all, therefore I would think it extremely unlikely that part of a muscle fibre (ie the more central 1/3rd) could contract more than another part of a fibre.
Like I said if there is any hard evidence to prove me, and others, wrong on this I would be very interested to see it

Its a tricky one and I appreciate what your saying, all I can say is that there is literature and research done that proves that cable cross overs and excercises alike mainly works the inner area of the pec muscle... leading on from this and your points regarding the structure of the chest, and that due to its structure it cant develop this way, im not sure.

pt man

stephen77


what I would like to see if the following

some one with a eg poor inner chest but good outer, upper etc who has only done eg flat bench press for a long time.
Then change to say doing all cable cross over for 6 months.

Then see the before and after pics.
With all these debates lots of people say I changed the shape of my chest by doing this exercise etc.
But you do not see any photo evidence of this. From the amount of people claiming these changes, it should be easy for some photo evidence?

Did you have a similar problem then? You mentioned photo evidence, did you provide any photoes to show changes/development?

I have not got any photos to surport using cable cross over helps with the inner chest, THough i use a lot of flat bench. So I would be the wrong person to ask anyway. My chest has pretty much got bigger.
I am putting it out there for some one to show me some evidence as over 10 years of reading forum like this, I have yet to see some photo grahic evidence of this. THough many people have given andecotol info to say it works. Just can not surport it with evidence.

stephen77

pt man

stephen77


what I would like to see if the following

some one with a eg poor inner chest but good outer, upper etc who has only done eg flat bench press for a long time.
Then change to say doing all cable cross over for 6 months.

Then see the before and after pics.
With all these debates lots of people say I changed the shape of my chest by doing this exercise etc.
But you do not see any photo evidence of this. From the amount of people claiming these changes, it should be easy for some photo evidence?

Did you have a similar problem then? You mentioned photo evidence, did you provide any photoes to show changes/development?

I have not got any photos to surport using cable cross over helps with the inner chest, THough i use a lot of flat bench. So I would be the wrong person to ask anyway. My chest has pretty much got bigger.
I am putting it out there for some one to show me some evidence as over 10 years of reading forum like this, I have yet to see some photo grahic evidence of this. THough many people have given andecotol info to say it works. Just can not surport it with evidence.

Ahh I am with you now, hm dont see the point in saying it worked for them if it didnt

pt man
I would imagine that the literature that you have read about this is either wrong, midsleading or misinterpretted. It is physically impossible to 'work' sections of individual muscles, if you have read something that says different then you need to find it and post it mate, cos I want to see it!!
I am also intrigued that you say there has been some research done as I run a science business that has done this type of research for over 25 years now. So the subject would obviously be of huge interest to us should the statement be factual.
Where did you see/read it mate?

 
Rachfit,
Are you suggesting that certain isolation exercises like decline bench or cable cross overs don't work the isolated section of the muscle, if this is the case what on earth are we doing hanging ourselves down at  an angle lifting heavy weights to develop this section of the muscle?  I am sure one of my lecturers at Uni did something on this maybe its something you could research.  
 

Rachfit


pt man
I would imagine that the literature that you have read about this is either wrong, midsleading or misinterpretted. It is physically impossible to 'work' sections of individual muscles, if you have read something that says different then you need to find it and post it mate, cos I want to see it!!
I am also intrigued that you say there has been some research done as I run a science business that has done this type of research for over 25 years now. So the subject would obviously be of huge interest to us should the statement be factual.
Where did you see/read it mate?

pt man
 


Ahh I am with you now, hm dont see the point in saying it worked for them if it didnt

some times its people mind playing tricks on them.
some times their delts may have got bigger altering there look.
some times, there chest has got bigger and they have got leaner.
Other times they do not want to admit they may be wrong.
or it may have happend. But no can post a pic showing it happend. Just be nice to see some proof as I have not seen it the gym or fourms i have visited.