Visit the MuscleTalk Shop - and check out our own range of MuscleTalk branded supplements at great prices with FREE delivery!

best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ?

Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
Author
jollygreengiant
New Member
  • Total Posts : 8
  • Reward points: 31
  • Joined: 2009/10/02 13:39:05
  • Status: offline
2009/10/02 13:47:33 (permalink)

best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ?

was going to run a 30mg per day 4 week cycle of epistane and would like to know what is the best OCT PCT product available for after the cycle to get me back to normal after cycle. i do have clomid to hand but dont know if this is suitable on its own for a PCT after epistane or not and not sure on dosages needed either !

any help appreciated

thanks
#1

21 Replies Related Threads

    MuscleTalk Shop - Bodybuilding Supplements
    PredatorNutrition
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2669
    • Reward points: 5647
    • Joined: 2009/01/06 01:51:12
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/02 15:57:34 (permalink)
    Here is a comprehensive review of issues to be considered if using OTC PCT:

    http://www.muscletalk.c...ost-cycle-treatment.aspx



    #2
    PartyBoy
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 27547
    • Reward points: 10582
    • Joined: 2003/01/14 15:49:53
    • Location: The North, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/02 17:09:28 (permalink)
    jollygreengiant
    i do have clomid to hand but dont know if this is suitable on its own for a PCT after epistane or not



    That will be fine.

    For a mild to moderate cycle I would go with something like this:

    Day 1: 200mg
    Next 7 days 100mg
    Next 10 days 50mg

    Nothing else required tbh.

     
    #3
    Taz
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 3606
    • Reward points: 4163
    • Joined: 2005/06/14 15:09:01
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/02 18:47:17 (permalink)
    jollygreengiant

    was going to run a 30mg per day 4 week cycle of epistane and would like to know what is the best OCT PCT product available for after the cycle to get me back to normal after cycle. i do have clomid to hand but dont know if this is suitable on its own for a PCT after epistane or not and not sure on dosages needed either !

    any help appreciated

    thanks


    Personally Id run a bottle of Cissus drol or Vitrix or Mass FX or Cycle Assist as a stand alone supp for PCT.
     
    If you struggle to recover them jump on the Clomid.
     
    Other than that Partyboy is bang on with the fact you could just use Clomid on its own and consider it a done deal.
    #4
    jollygreengiant
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 8
    • Reward points: 31
    • Joined: 2009/10/02 13:39:05
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/03 10:20:55 (permalink)
    thanks for the info, if i use clomid for PCT is there anything else i should take with it to get test levels back upto normal or will clomid suffice on its own ? sorry for all questions am new to all this stuff.
    #5
    Taz
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 3606
    • Reward points: 4163
    • Joined: 2005/06/14 15:09:01
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/03 16:43:25 (permalink)
    As said mate Clomid on its would be fine, I like to use creatine also during PCT to give me a little boost during pct.

    #6
    PredatorNutrition
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2669
    • Reward points: 5647
    • Joined: 2009/01/06 01:51:12
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/03 20:56:56 (permalink)
    Clomid - expect possible issues with mood and libido with this compound. Not a good choice imo.



    #7
    danchubbz
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 4236
    • Reward points: 7150
    • Joined: 2007/01/12 15:30:24
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/03 23:42:32 (permalink)
    Taz

    jollygreengiant

    was going to run a 30mg per day 4 week cycle of epistane and would like to know what is the best OCT PCT product available for after the cycle to get me back to normal after cycle. i do have clomid to hand but dont know if this is suitable on its own for a PCT after epistane or not and not sure on dosages needed either !

    any help appreciated

    thanks


    Personally Id run a bottle of Cissus drol or Vitrix or Mass FX or Cycle Assist as a stand alone supp for PCT.
     
    If you struggle to recover them jump on the Clomid.
     
    Other than that Partyboy is bang on with the fact you could just use Clomid on its own and consider it a done deal.


    so u think a test booster like c-drol id adeqaute for a cycle like epi or hdrol?
    #8
    em dubya
    Senior Member
    • Total Posts : 246
    • Reward points: 1180
    • Joined: 2009/09/02 00:14:52
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 02:48:12 (permalink)
    I would use either 6oxo or Inhibit E w/ PCT Assist for pct(otc)

    Competitive Edge Labs Rep
    mw@competitiveedgelabs.com
    #9
    PartyBoy
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 27547
    • Reward points: 10582
    • Joined: 2003/01/14 15:49:53
    • Location: The North, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 08:52:14 (permalink)
    PredatorNutrition

    Clomid - expect possible issues with mood and libido with this compound. Not a good choice imo.


    Mood and libido issues would be the result of the problem that you are attempting to correct with the drug!

     
    #10
    PredatorNutrition
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2669
    • Reward points: 5647
    • Joined: 2009/01/06 01:51:12
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 11:49:44 (permalink)
    PartyBoy

    PredatorNutrition

    Clomid - expect possible issues with mood and libido with this compound. Not a good choice imo.


    Mood and libido issues would be the result of the problem that you are attempting to correct with the drug!


    No, I am talking of those issues arising some time into PCT. I do not see these arise as often with some PCT supplements.



    #11
    Pasty
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 1501
    • Reward points: 2444
    • Joined: 2009/05/28 10:13:29
    • Location: Leeds
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 12:20:24 (permalink)
    jollygreengiant

    was going to run a 30mg per day 4 week cycle of epistane and would like to know what is the best OCT PCT product available for after the cycle to get me back to normal after cycle. i do have clomid to hand but dont know if this is suitable on its own for a PCT after epistane or not and not sure on dosages needed either !

    any help appreciated

    thanks


    Hey mate,

    Clomid is a poor choice to use on its own to recover from after a cycle, I've used it myself and whilst its main role is to act as oestrogen antagonist at certain receptor sites, to promote testosterone recovery through negative feedback, the side effects from the compounds including their toxicity is often worse than the compound you ran in the first place!

    Not to mention the fact that obtaining it in the first place can be difficult for some individuals, you then have the issues of fakes and purity of the compound. For a compound such as Epistane, there's almost no need to go to this length.

    PredatorNutrition is right on the nail in that the short-term side effects from the compound are not worth the effort when other, better choices are available on the market that perform as good a job as conventional SERMS and have little to no side effects.

    I have personally used an OTC PCT for my last E-Stane cycle, recovered fine and will use one for my current cycle of Cynostane.




    #12
    PartyBoy
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 27547
    • Reward points: 10582
    • Joined: 2003/01/14 15:49:53
    • Location: The North, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 12:29:44 (permalink)
    *UKStrength*

    the side effects from the compounds including their toxicity is often worse than the compound you ran in the first place!


    Just how toxic is it? We're using modest dosages for a relatively short length. I very much doubt regulatory approval would have been granted if women's livers were about to collapse. Toxicity will be nowhere near that of methylated orals.


    Not to mention the fact that obtaining it in the first place can be difficult for some individuals


    Not particularly difficult, besides which he has it already.


    you then have the issues of fakes and purity of the compound


    Totally unheard of. In 8 years of steroid discussion I have never seen or heard a single account of counterfeit clomid or nolvadex. They are simply too cheap for the counterfeiters to bother with. They are generic drugs, the patents have lapsed so prices are low.



    PredatorNutrition is right on the nail in that the short-term side effects from the compound are not worth the effort


    The side effects are more likely due to the fact that there is a hormonal imbalance as I've already stated above.



    when other, better choices are available on the market that perform as good a job as conventional SERMS and have little to no side effects.


    Show me the clinical data to support this claim.


     
    #13
    PartyBoy
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 27547
    • Reward points: 10582
    • Joined: 2003/01/14 15:49:53
    • Location: The North, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 12:31:14 (permalink)
    PredatorNutrition

    PartyBoy

    PredatorNutrition

    Clomid - expect possible issues with mood and libido with this compound. Not a good choice imo.


    Mood and libido issues would be the result of the problem that you are attempting to correct with the drug!


    No, I am talking of those issues arising some time into PCT. I do not see these arise as often with some PCT supplements.



    It is likely that effects of low androgens are witnessed some time into pct, and not immediately apparent upon cessation of the steroid


     
    #14
    PredatorNutrition
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2669
    • Reward points: 5647
    • Joined: 2009/01/06 01:51:12
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 12:57:35 (permalink)
    PartyBoy

    PredatorNutrition

    PartyBoy

    PredatorNutrition

    Clomid - expect possible issues with mood and libido with this compound. Not a good choice imo.


    Mood and libido issues would be the result of the problem that you are attempting to correct with the drug!


    No, I am talking of those issues arising some time into PCT. I do not see these arise as often with some PCT supplements.



    It is likely that effects of low androgens are witnessed some time into pct, and not immediately apparent upon cessation of the steroid


    As a comparison I would say stacking something for estrogen suppression with something based around divanil, trans-resveratrol etc promotes both a healthier libido and rise in free testosterone. At the same time, as you know, I like to see the use of a cortisol blocker during PCT.

    One final point on clomid is that it can effect vision which in my mind is a far more important concern than eople give credit to.

    There are other reasons I do not really like clomid and nolva. A good article on them follows. If you google side effects and clomid you will get an absolute boatload of results as well.

    http://www.primordialpe...nd-nolvadex-dangers.html



    #15
    jollygreengiant
    New Member
    • Total Posts : 8
    • Reward points: 31
    • Joined: 2009/10/02 13:39:05
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 13:11:04 (permalink)
    So if not clomid for pct what product OTC would you suggest ?????
    #16
    PartyBoy
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 27547
    • Reward points: 10582
    • Joined: 2003/01/14 15:49:53
    • Location: The North, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 13:54:15 (permalink)
    PredatorNutrition
    I like to see the use of a cortisol blocker during PCT.


    But as you know, we've been through this numerous times before, and there isn't one commercially available that has data to suggest it does anything.


    There are side effects with most drugs. I'm sure if you looked at a paracetamol leaflet it would have a list as long as your arm.

    To that end, are we saying that side effects are not an issue with otc PCT products? If so, why is that? Is it because their effects are minor, typically meaning side effects are minor too? Or is it because there are no credible human data studies which would highlight such side effects.

    Probably a bit of both if I were forced to guess.
    post edited by PartyBoy - 2009/10/04 13:56:39

     
    #17
    Pasty
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 1501
    • Reward points: 2444
    • Joined: 2009/05/28 10:13:29
    • Location: Leeds
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 15:24:08 (permalink)
    PartyBoyBut as you know, we've been through this numerous times before, and there isn't one commercially available that has data to suggest it does anything.


    I'd beg to differ on this point, the following studies all support the use of a cortisol-reducing supplement, in this case alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine, in conjunction with regular resistance training:

    1. Acute supplementation with alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine augments growth hormone response to and peak force production during resistance exercise
    Ziegenfuss et al.
    J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jun 2008 5(Suppl 1): P15

    2. Alpha-Glycerylphosphorylcholine administration increases the GH response to GHRH of young and elderly subjects.
    Ceda et al.
    Horm Metab Res, Mar 1992; 24(3): 119-21.

    3. HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
    [Annual Meeting Abstracts]
    Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
    California State University, Chico

    4. The effects of soy phosphatidylserine on cortisol, growth hormone and testosterone response to moderate intensity exercise.
    Starks, et al.
    University of Mississippi

    5. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men.
    Monteleone et al.
    Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1992, 42(4):385-388

    6. Phospholipids and sports performance.
    R Jager, et al.
    J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jan 2007; 4: 5

    7. Effects of phosphatidylserine on exercise capacity during cycling in active males.
    Kingsley et al.
    Med Sci Sports Exerc 2006, 38(I):64-71

    8. The hormonal and perceptive effects of phosphatidylserine administration during two weeks of weight training-induced over-training.
    Fayey TD, et al.
    Biol Sport 1998, 15(2): 135-144


    PartyBoyThere are side effects with most drugs. I'm sure if you looked at a paracetamol leaflet it would have a list as long as your arm.

    To that end, are we saying that side effects are not an issue with otc PCT products? If so, why is that? Is it because their effects are minor, typically meaning side effects are minor too? Or is it because there are no credible human data studies which would highlight such side effects.


    There are side effects to all PCT products, OTC or SERM. However those arising from the use of SERM administration are amongst some of the worst, especially in the ludicrous dosages commonly suggested amongst bodybuilders. 

    Most other OTC products, from the feedback I've read from users has typically been milder to nil, however this is not necessarily due to their relative potency.

    Resveratrol for example has been shown to be be an effective reducer of the aromatase enzyme in breast tissue, increase spermatogenesis, act as a potent antioxidant and support blood vessel integrity. This compound is becoming more popular in various OTC PCT products, and for good reason as it could easily replace a SERM in a milder cycle.

    1. Resveratrol in Cardioprotection: A Therapeutic Promise of Alternative Medicine
    Dipak K. Das et al. Mol. Interv., Feb 2006; 6: 36 - 47.



    2. The Red Wine Polyphenol Resveratrol Displays Bilevel Inhibition on Aromatase in Breast Cancer Cells
    Yun Wang, et al.Toxicol. Sci., Jul 2006; 92: 71 - 77.



    3. trans-Resveratrol, a Natural Antioxidant from Grapes, Increases Sperm Output in Healthy Rats M. Emília Juan, et al.J. Nutr., Apr 2005; 135: 757 - 760


    4. trans-Resveratrol relaxes the corpus cavernosum ex vivo and enhances testosterone levels and sperm quality in vivo.S Shin, et al. Arch Pharm Res, Jan 2008; 31(1): 83-7.

    I agree there does need to be more Human Participant-based RCTs conducted to support the anecdotal feedback and in vivo studies already available, but the choice is there for the trainee should they wish to try them in conjunction with or without a SERM.
    #18
    PartyBoy
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 27547
    • Reward points: 10582
    • Joined: 2003/01/14 15:49:53
    • Location: The North, UK
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 16:17:46 (permalink)
    *UKStrength*

    PartyBoyBut as you know, we've been through this numerous times before, and there isn't one commercially available that has data to suggest it does anything.


    I'd beg to differ on this point, the following studies all support the use of a cortisol-reducing supplement, in this case alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine, in conjunction with regular resistance training:

    1. Acute supplementation with alpha-glycerylphosphorylcholine augments growth hormone response to and peak force production during resistance exercise
    Ziegenfuss et al.
    J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jun 2008 5(Suppl 1): P15

    2. Alpha-Glycerylphosphorylcholine administration increases the GH response to GHRH of young and elderly subjects.
    Ceda et al.
    Horm Metab Res, Mar 1992; 24(3): 119-21.

    3. HORMONAL EFFECTS OF PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE DURING 2-WKS OF INTENSE WEIGHT TRAINING
    [Annual Meeting Abstracts]
    Fahey, T. D.; Pearl, M.
    California State University, Chico

    4. The effects of soy phosphatidylserine on cortisol, growth hormone and testosterone response to moderate intensity exercise.
    Starks, et al.
    University of Mississippi

    5. Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men.
    Monteleone et al.
    Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1992, 42(4):385-388

    6. Phospholipids and sports performance.
    R Jager, et al.
    J Int Soc Sports Nutr, Jan 2007; 4: 5

    7. Effects of phosphatidylserine on exercise capacity during cycling in active males.
    Kingsley et al.
    Med Sci Sports Exerc 2006, 38(I):64-71

    8. The hormonal and perceptive effects of phosphatidylserine administration during two weeks of weight training-induced over-training.
    Fayey TD, et al.
    Biol Sport 1998, 15(2): 135-144




    Does any of this data show any real world data over placebo, ie statistically significant differences. I'm not talking in terms of hormonal changes, but in real world differences, ie reductions in muscle catabolism during a pct environment?






    Most other OTC products, from the feedback I've read from users has typically been milder to nil, however this is not necessarily due to their relative potency.



    So there is no clinical data, just empirical observation.


    Resveratrol for example has been shown to be be an effective reducer of the aromatase enzyme in breast tissue


    How effective compared to something like anastrazole or letrozole?

     
    #19
    PredatorNutrition
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2669
    • Reward points: 5647
    • Joined: 2009/01/06 01:51:12
    • Status: offline
    Re:best OTC PCT for epistane cycle ? 2009/10/04 18:15:37 (permalink)
    PartyBoy



    Does any of this data show any real world data over placebo, ie statistically significant differences. I'm not talking in terms of hormonal changes, but in real world differences, ie reductions in muscle catabolism during a pct environment?






    Most other OTC products, from the feedback I've read from users has typically been milder to nil, however this is not necessarily due to their relative potency.



    So there is no clinical data, just empirical observation.



    Bizarrely you seem to be requesting real world evidence in the first statement and then rejecting it the second! On the point of cortisol blockers you have already been given studies by another poster on the effectivness of 5-AT and 7-OH in lowering cortisol.

    I never have seen any study showing clomid or nolva restoring all health indices by themselves, without side effects, during the post cycle phase.

    post edited by PredatorNutrition - 2009/10/04 18:23:09



    #20
    Page: 12 > Showing page 1 of 2
    Jump to:
    MuscleTalk Shop - Bodybuilding Supplements
    ©2014 All content is copyright of MuscleTalk.co.uk and its use elsewhere is prohibited. (posting guidelines | privacy | advertise | contact us | supported by)
    © 2014 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.5