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 denatured and undenatured whey?
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skat

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denatured and undenatured whey? - 26 April 2006 17:28
I've seen on a reflex whey tub it says that they use some expensive 99.9% undenatured protein. Does this mean that other cheaper whey from bulk powders and myprotein is denatured? And does it even matter if it is denatured anyway??
myprotein.co.uk

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RE: denatured and undenatured whey? - 26 April 2006 17:42
All of our WPC's and WPI's a are un-denatured because they are produced by filtration not heat.

Where whey solution is heated to seperate the protein this can de-nature it, this is more common in WPCs produced with gelling capability and ion-exchanged WPCs or WPIs

However the least denatured proteins are those in our milk protein concentrate as this is produced by filtration straight from milk without going through the process to seperate the casein for cheese or other use.
<message edited by myprotein.co.uk on 26 April 2006 17:59>
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Mobster

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RE: denatured and undenatured whey? - 26 April 2006 20:13

ORIGINAL: skat

And does it even matter if it is denatured anyway??


Not as much as marketers would have you beleive. Meat becomes 'denatured' when cooked but is still useful. What is meant by the over-used term is further away from the orginal form. If, in the case of whey, it starts out with all the wonderful fractions intact and as the processing takes place ends up with less then it becomes 'denatured'.

However, I think the use of the phrase can be misleading as it stictly means less natural or not as nature intended. If that is the case and we should have all our food that way then we'd eat raw pork. It is well worth remembering that un-denatured whey isn't used by athletes. Some processing is required and ergo some denaturing takes place. The less the better and the, as Oliver describes it, the less harsh filtration as opposed to Ion Exchange (still used in the majority of American WPC's and WPI's and those where aminos etc are 'added' - cos they've been stripped out) is the way to go. The best of the best use WPC made under the CFM (tm) method.
<message edited by Mobster on 26 April 2006 20:18>
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Blap

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RE: denatured and undenatured whey? - 26 April 2006 20:30

ORIGINAL: Mobster


ORIGINAL: skat

And does it even matter if it is denatured anyway??
Some processing is required and ergo some denaturing takes place. The less the better and the, as Oliver describes it, the less harsh filtration as opposed to Ion Exchange (still used in the majority of American WPC's and WPI's and those where aminos etc are 'added' - cos they've been stripped out) is the way to go. The best of the best use WPC made under the CFM (tm) method.

This is something I've never quite understood.

My understanding of the denaturisation process was always that the primary amino acid structure remained intact and that it is the bonds which form the secondary/tertiary/quaternary structure which are disrupted.

Since the digestion process results in absorbable single amino acids (from proteins via pepsin/pancreatic proteases etc) what's the difference if the start product is denatured or not?

<message edited by Blap on 26 April 2006 20:33>
Mobster

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RE: denatured and undenatured whey? - 27 April 2006 00:14
I would guess it is, as I described, because the phrase gets over-used by marketing departments and not nutritionist. Using my analogy earlier if a piece of raw meat is as nature intended and you cook it to make it edible you, by the strictest of definitions - dentaure it. However, from a human digestive tract point of view it's still usuable. If you overcooked it - til it burnt - it would become so denatured as to be useless. Egg powder is good but would be considered denatured compared to a egg itself. Ditto skimmed milk powder to liquid skimmed milk.

Pure whey is literally the clear liquid which forms at the top of a starting to turn milk. It is about 30% but that's little better than tuna. The Ion exchange process uses both acid and Ions to seperate the basic constitunents into a higher protein which is then dried, sprayed etc into the familier powder. It is especially good for most WPI's. However, it ''denatures'' the Whey too much and takes out all the better properties that some WPC anbd WPI's have.

A food scientists (some articles refer to this) would look for a good short, medium and long chain amino profile (inc branch chain etc). The better balance a product has in ratios which are either close to the human muscle tissue (vis the theory behind Ravager 4 and other multi-blend products etc) or in a form which we use well (for example high in L-Glutamine post workout).

The reality, as I mentioned a week or so ago, is that your needs change through the day according both to time and stress (training being one form). In an ideal world a machine in your house would mix up both food and drinks specific to your needs as and when the drink was required. There is also some thought that the blood stream can hold for a few hours various forms to go where required. Hence the thinking that you 1) eat as wide a group of WHOLE FOODs and SOLID FOOD PROTEINS first and then and only then SUPPLEMENT with protein. 2) secondly, in spite of occasional marketing leading you to beleive otherwise a £50.00 tub of 'super' protein isn't 2-3 times as effective as a cheap bulk WPC. It is arguably 10% better at best. This is why I ask why people over concern themselves with amino acid profiles and balances when no single product does the job - not whole food not supplement. It's the same again with natured or denatured - it is a nice idea but how much of a difference do we think it makes? 1%? More? Less?

You also need to think of food and supplements as a tool and work around your own needs and requirements. If you are normally very healthy then having the added benefit of the immune enhancing properties of some of the better WPC's isn't outweighed by the simple fact that you may well be lactose intolerant and so can only use a Ion-Exchanged high in protein but low in lactose WPI. Just as an aside I come across the odd strange problem when talking to customers when they place orders over the phone and one was a guy who had terrible problems with carbs during the day when he was working but no problems at night. I'd normally say carb heavy in the am and protein heavy in the PM but if it wasn't gonna work for him - **** just change it around - it's not the end of the world. Yet he was spending too much time looking for a carb solution or alternative. Screw that just have a starchy and fibrous carbs heavy meal late in the day. We can and do overcomplicate thinks sometimes. One US guy on this forum had spent two weeks umming and ahhing over two products and so was training with a low protein level diet and I said I'd have ate whatever for the two weeks rather than worried and gone without. I have also noticed that those that worry about these things the most are, honestly, mostly skinny or under the weight they wanna be. GET IT DOWN YER NECKS. Buy the perfect food when you are training for a competition or win the lotto.

Food marketing can be amusing. Both CNP and Reflex made some milage out of the differing forms/source of carbs. Both were right but only in the context in which the ingredients were used. For example CNP correctly stated that malto, when used in conjunction with other ingredients is as good as any of the ground oats etc that some are adding to their home made MRP's. Not as a standalone product perhaps but when added to a list of healthy ingredients. Yet people in this forum still ask what's the best kind - activated barley etc etc. It adds to the confusion.

So some companies will market their product as containing 'undenartured whey protein' but avoid, as they should, saying it is better and by how much. The customer thinks 'it must be better' but doesn't know why 'otherwise they wouldn't mention it'. Even it it might be true is it that much better that we ought to worry? Nah. I'd still prefer a WPC over a WPI and I suggest reading the MT article on the subject for why.

A little off topic but one other thing to look out for is a protein product containing WPC to which WPI has been added along with 'added aminos and L-Glutamine' or which is marketed as contain ing the aminos and L-Glutamine (already there anyway). The ones to which these have been added often contain no more protein as a percentage than most WPC's - around 80-84% or 80-84g protein per 100g powder. Yet they have added WPI etc? So how piss poor was it to begin with or how much additives and other extras have been added to lower the percentage so much they needed to jack it back up to the market average for WPC by adding back in WPI etc?

Again - the way 'dentaured' or 'undenatured' should be used is only 1) as close to the original form as possible or 2) using a less harsh production/manufacturing process so as to keep the better fractions intact. In spite of my occasional comments re marketing we do well in the UK in the supplement sector compared to say the high street big shops over processed microwavable food market. Short of using very low grade WPC (60% and under) or worse a whey powder (about 30% protein) the raw material cost of WPC is, IMO, difficult to **** up without just being plain greedy or over-complicating a product (some of the bigger companies add a cellulose as a means of making their products creamy - it keeps the protein levels high but isn't all that as a protein or making the product do what we want it to when we buy it - and don't get me started on the thickeners used.
<message edited by Mobster on 27 April 2006 00:23>
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Mobster

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RE: denatured and undenatured whey? - 27 April 2006 00:28

ORIGINAL: Blap


ORIGINAL: Mobster


ORIGINAL: skat

And does it even matter if it is denatured anyway??
Some processing is required and ergo some denaturing takes place. The less the better and the, as Oliver describes it, the less harsh filtration as opposed to Ion Exchange (still used in the majority of American WPC's and WPI's and those where aminos etc are 'added' - cos they've been stripped out) is the way to go. The best of the best use WPC made under the CFM (tm) method.

This is something I've never quite understood.

My understanding of the denaturisation process was always that the primary amino acid structure remained intact and that it is the bonds which form the secondary/tertiary/quaternary structure which are disrupted.

Since the digestion process results in absorbable single amino acids (from proteins via pepsin/pancreatic proteases etc) what's the difference if the start product is denatured or not?




It's less aminos being ****ed up and more the fractions that get stripped out by the harsher processes. Also I think some single aminos are supposed to taste bloody awful in isolation aren't they? If a process was so rough or raw as to make them all singles it would probably taste like piss (like hydrolysed wheat and pea proteins do or used to - I think www.t-nation.com have an article on it).
http://www.wheyconsortium.co.uk

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Click here for my gripper e-book
skat

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RE: denatured and undenatured whey? - 27 April 2006 21:30
ok, thanks for they replies guys. Cheers 4 the detailed answer mobster


So let me get it straight....I can buy dirt cheap whey that may of been produced using a 'harsher' method that will contain a lot of denatured protein and it will do exactly the same thing for me as 99.9% undenatured whey (in terms of supplying my muscles with the aminos they need)???
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