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 UFC 104 spoiler

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JBRSS
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UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 04:48
I am a huge Machida fan but Shogun was robbed there, i scored the first to Machida and maybe the second but overall he was beaten bad. I definitely feel for Shogun there, poor bloke.
 
If Johnson can make weight at WW he will be an incredible force to reckon with.

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walks
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 05:55
Im not a big fan of either fighter but after that result im in a really bad mood.
Wasnt close and was never in a million years a unanimous one to machida



rob211080
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 08:22
Shogun was robbed.He won at least 4 rounds and i hope he gets an immediate rematch.

Rasputin
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 09:08
LOL I havnt seen the video yet but from what i have read he was robbed. Got a message from my mate at about 6 am fing and blinding about how ****e the show was.
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Bookerman
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 10:48
Disgrace of a decision. Shogun is one hard b**tard, while others have backed off when Machida attacked he stood solid and threw back causing Machida to back off. And how he could throw kicks like that after 2 knee reconstructions, very impressed with him tonight. Ben Rothwell was a major let down.

Mr.M
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 11:14
rothwell was pooooor... saying that, velasquez looked very good! never took his foot off the gas, relentless..
johnson looks like a genuine contender. just gone thru his previous fights and sh1t me he looks awesome!! not as refined as GSP, but a genuine threat i reckon.. serious hands and a good ground game!!

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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 14:35
Mr.M

johnson looks like a genuine contender. just gone thru his previous fights and sh1t me he looks awesome!! not as refined as GSP, but a genuine threat i reckon.. serious hands and a good ground game!!


To bad he can't make weight!!

Having watched the show live (and being a Machida fanboy) I have to say that the decsison was disgracefull

me and my mate who I watched it with had it at 4-1 to Shogun, with the 1 round that Machida won being debtable
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 15:04
i think it was really close!!  wdnt say it was a robbery tho by miles!!  really close decision that machida got .  only clear rd i had shogun winning was the last.  was a boring fight tho!

think shogun deserves a rematch tho.

powerpusher
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 17:10
yep he was without doubt robbed.


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little reborn
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 17:13
I had it scored 49-46 Shogun and so did the people I watched it with. Got to have a immediate rematch...... make it happen dana!
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 22:37
I think it was closer than many people are saying, but there's no doubt that Shogun won that fight.


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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 25 October 2009 22:53
Flop the judges final decision, the people all know who won that fight. I said he woulddo it.

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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 00:51
I thought Machida won the fight and agree with the scoring. First 3 defo Machida rounds, 4th and 5th to Shogun.

Joe Rogan wouldn't stop kissing his ar*e! Constantly going on about Shogun's leg kicks and ignoring all the clean shots that Machida was landing.
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 07:32
I thought Shogun had the first(just), fourth and fifth. It was much closer than a lot of people are saying though.


Mr.M
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 10:59
interesting what dana says about mazagatti.. is it the licensing commission who apoint the refs in charge of the fights?? u'd think if he disliked him that much he could just get him out the UFC..??

JBRSS
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 11:49
Mr.M


interesting what dana says about mazagatti.. is it the licensing commission who apoint the refs in charge of the fights?? u'd think if he disliked him that much he could just get him out the UFC..??


If it was upto Dana, he would referee and judge the fights. The commision picks the referees.
 
There is a big gap between the best refs (McCarthey, Herb Dean, Yamasaki) and the guys who make constantly bad judgements in the UFC (Dan Mirgliatta, Yves Lavigne etc)

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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 13:06
shogun won every round, when theres no takedowns or grappling the judges are meant to score the fight on effective striking, octagon control and agression.

shogun landed more clean shots in every round and as he was throwing thai kicks rather then karate kicks he also hit harder.

shogun controlled the octagon and was more agressive  in every round a apart for about 20 second in the 3rd, he  was more agressive in every round including the majority of the 3rd.

those are the facts, the only thing machida did effectively was stuff shoguns shots and that only landed him in the 50/50 clinch were he got knee'ed and elbowed.

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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 13:15
So disappointed with Rothwell, he didn't seem interested.

IMO Shogun won but I wasn't surprised by the decision, Shogun executed his game plan very well. I was surprised Machida didn't let his hands go and be more aggressive IMO if he did he could of got the (T)KO.

I'm glad Shogun lost I really really want to see Shogun v Silva. That would be a very interesting fight, though I'd like one of them to expose Rasad Evans.

Johnson v Daley/Swick theres another great possibility.
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TheGunslinger
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 13:53
toxo


shogun won every round, when theres no takedowns or grappling the judges are meant to score the fight on effective striking, octagon control and agression.

shogun landed more clean shots in every round and as he was throwing thai kicks rather then karate kicks he also hit harder.

shogun controlled the octagon and was more agressive  in every round a apart for about 20 second in the 3rd, he  was more agressive in every round including the majority of the 3rd.

those are the facts, the only thing machida did effectively was stuff shoguns shots and that only landed him in the 50/50 clinch were he got knee'ed and elbowed.


Im Sorry, but ive got to take issue with this.
 
First, there is not a chance Shogun won every round, you have to remember this is Machida's belt to lose, simply going out there and throw 1-2 combinations is not going to win you the belt, especially when more often than not in rounds 1 & 2 Machida's counters were much crisper and on the money.
 
Only when Machida lost mobility in his spring did Shogun start landing anything of significance and even then i saw only one clean shot connect with Machida's face (bloodied him up) and another hit him in the neck. The rest of the damage was to the torso and legs, to try and win a belt from a champion with body/leg kicks especially when he had Machida hurt many times and did not pursue is not going to cut a clear decision in any judges mind, it could have gone either way.
 
Rogans commentary is this match was disgusting and has turned me from a moderate fan into a "hater".
 
I had to rewatch several clips multiple times to actually comprehend that Joe was not recognising any of machida's landed shots (especially a few brutal knee's) but seemingly making love to every glancing blow Rua threw, it was simply unreal.
 
Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.
 
There is a difference in all combat sports, those who have ever competed for a belt will have been told this or know it from teachings.
 
Secondly, this is not fact as you say, its a subjective opinion based on the visual, audio and kinaesthetic information your brain took from the fight; in short your brain is bias lol.
 
I really wanted Rua to win as i am Muay Thai at my roots even though i transitioned into MMA, but when the final bell rang, i can say who i thought deserved to win, but i didnt have a clue who's hand would be raised.
 
Something interesting i picked up from Machida's corner was in the 4-5th round break his coach said "you have to find his timing!!!!", meaning even at that late stage he hadn't managed to get Rua's timings down which interests me as to the naked eye his movement was traditional Muay Thai, linear with a light front leg which i thought would have been the perfect meal for the dragon, obviously not lol.
 
Rothwell was terrible, tough as hell but completely under skilled to be fighting that calibre of fighter in his first fight, reminded me of a bigger Cabbage. Brock will cripple Cain. The only guy left with a shout is Nog with his diamond chin and submission skills.
 
I see an Anderson Silva Vs Rua fight sometime next year.
 
Suddenly the UFC divisions are looking extremely weak bar a few elite fighters in each division.
 
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kinglean
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 14:32
TheGunslinger

 
Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.
 


You should be a boxing judge mate.

The best man should have his hand raised at the end of a bout.

It does not matter if its a pair of novices, the worlds elite or whether there is a belt on the line.

End of debate.







toxo
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 16:02
TheGunslinger


toxo


shogun won every round, when theres no takedowns or grappling the judges are meant to score the fight on effective striking, octagon control and agression.

shogun landed more clean shots in every round and as he was throwing thai kicks rather then karate kicks he also hit harder.

shogun controlled the octagon and was more agressive  in every round a apart for about 20 second in the 3rd, he  was more agressive in every round including the majority of the 3rd.

those are the facts, the only thing machida did effectively was stuff shoguns shots and that only landed him in the 50/50 clinch were he got knee'ed and elbowed.


Im Sorry, but ive got to take issue with this.
 
First, there is not a chance Shogun won every round, you have to remember this is Machida's belt to lose, simply going out there and throw 1-2 combinations is not going to win you the belt, especially when more often than not in rounds 1 & 2 Machida's counters were much crisper and on the money.
 
Only when Machida lost mobility in his spring did Shogun start landing anything of significance and even then i saw only one clean shot connect with Machida's face (bloodied him up) and another hit him in the neck. The rest of the damage was to the torso and legs, to try and win a belt from a champion with body/leg kicks especially when he had Machida hurt many times and did not pursue is not going to cut a clear decision in any judges mind, it could have gone either way.
 
Rogans commentary is this match was disgusting and has turned me from a moderate fan into a "hater".
 
I had to rewatch several clips multiple times to actually comprehend that Joe was not recognising any of machida's landed shots (especially a few brutal knee's) but seemingly making love to every glancing blow Rua threw, it was simply unreal.
 
Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.
 
There is a difference in all combat sports, those who have ever competed for a belt will have been told this or know it from teachings.
 
Secondly, this is not fact as you say, its a subjective opinion based on the visual, audio and kinaesthetic information your brain took from the fight; in short your brain is bias lol.
 
I really wanted Rua to win as i am Muay Thai at my roots even though i transitioned into MMA, but when the final bell rang, i can say who i thought deserved to win, but i didnt have a clue who's hand would be raised.
 
Something interesting i picked up from Machida's corner was in the 4-5th round break his coach said "you have to find his timing!!!!", meaning even at that late stage he hadn't managed to get Rua's timings down which interests me as to the naked eye his movement was traditional Muay Thai, linear with a light front leg which i thought would have been the perfect meal for the dragon, obviously not lol.
 
Rothwell was terrible, tough as hell but completely under skilled to be fighting that calibre of fighter in his first fight, reminded me of a bigger Cabbage. Brock will cripple Cain. The only guy left with a shout is Nog with his diamond chin and submission skills.
 
I see an Anderson Silva Vs Rua fight sometime next year.
 
Suddenly the UFC divisions are looking extremely weak bar a few elite fighters in each division.
 


those are the facts, shogun landed more shots was more agressive ans controlled the cage, those are the criteria that is stipulated that a fight in the ufc should be judged by (not counting takedowns and groundwork that didnt happen in this fight) if you do not believe me you can check out one of the hundreds of computer break downs of the fight that are on line.
 
shogun beat machida, considering that machida rarely attacks and runs the whole time its unlikely he's ever going to get ko'ed and has very good tdd and jits so if you cant beat a champ on points like machida has won most of his fights machida will be camp forever, but luckly the rules dosnt say you have to k.o the champ or submit him to win.
<message edited by toxo on 26 October 2009 16:07>

powerpusher
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 16:09

Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.

 
 
 
but its mma not muay thai. you win for winning not because you are the champ


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toxo
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 16:34
exactly machida shouldnt get the decision  for no other reason then he lost but  survived

Rasputin
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 17:02
What a crock of **** fight have watched it now. Bag of bollocks yes Shogun should have won but he could have done alot better imo. Crap fight waste of time all the yanks are going nuts ont he forums about having to pay for it as the whole card was **** not impressed
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bmc
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 18:13
i like machida but his performance was sh1t shogun should have won

as for rothwell totally sh1t i could see him getting cut from the ufc

johnson impressed me again,i bet you he's pissed missing out on sixty grand for knockout of the night for not making weight
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 20:09
Johnson was very impressive.  He looked huge compared to his opponent.

Good article here about the outcome of the Main Event on Sunday and what it means for the division - http://www.mmafighting.com/news/2009/10/25/machida-rua-rematch-buys-time-ufc-light-heavyweights

Also, for what it's worth I think Shogun deserved the victory.
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 21:24
powerpusher



Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.

       
 
 
but its mma not muay thai. you win for winning not because you are the champ



Who said it was Muay Thai? If it was Shogun would have certainly won every round, i was given an example.

Win for winning? That doesn't even make sense, he didnt do enough to take the belt off Machida, period, and suffered for it.

The wrong decision but he could have finished him several times, he didnt and left it in the hands of the monumental **** up that is Ceil Peoples.

Dana White, has said it from day 1, and we have seen it from day 1 in the UFC, you leave it in the hands of the judges and it could go either way.

It happened with Bisping and Hamil which was even worse as there was no argument Mike took ANY round.
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TheGunslinger
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 21:36
Toxo, 
Your getting yourself confused, the only fact that has come out of that fight is that Shogun has another L on his record and Machida is still undefeated, the opinion of some guy on the internet who things he has the right to spout so called facts, the computer break downs a la fight metric and mma math is a load of bull****, any fan who lives by that is not a fan (imo of course).

Machida's counters were clinical and clean, aggression is scored of course but also its execution, and whenever Shogun moved in, the majority of the time it was Machida who finished the conflict with a strike.

What took the absolute piss was Rogans commentary, then in the slow motion replays in-between rounds all it showed (in the first 2-3 rounds) was Machida smashing in counter/flying knees and Shogun throwing wild punches leading off some very clinical and solid leg kicks.

When Rua shot in, it was stuffed and Machida would turn him off the cage, when Rua pieced anything together after a leg kick Machida countered much more cleanly, the ONLY clear punch i saw Rua connect with was an overhand that made Machida lip bleed in the 4th i believe, I saw a side neck punch land and Rogan calling it something to the effect of a devastating hook to the head with KO power.

He didnt do enough, 3 judges saw it that way, those are the FACTS.

It’s got nothing to do with the large amount of coin i had running on 5 picks to win either.
 
<message edited by TheGunslinger on 26 October 2009 21:53>
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TheGunslinger
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 21:52
kinglean


TheGunslinger


Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.



You should be a boxing judge mate.

The best man should have his hand raised at the end of a bout.

It does not matter if its a pair of novices, the worlds elite or whether there is a belt on the line.

End of debate.
 

Your right, end of debate, thanks for agreeing.


"Rua himself said he didn’t press the action in the final two rounds because his corner had told him he was in control. If that’s true, it’s that advice that cost him the fight. And it’s always the worst kind of advice to give a fighter in any match, but particularly a technical fight like Machida-Rua". 

'Shogun' has no one to blame but himself - UFC - Yahoo! Sports



<message edited by TheGunslinger on 26 October 2009 21:53>
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Mr.M
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 22:10
so ur saying that in ur opinion, rua won the fight, but didnt do enough to take the belt??
thats BS.. if u win the fight, u win the fight. belt or no belt involved..

illmatic
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 22:19
TheGunslinger


toxo


shogun won every round, when theres no takedowns or grappling the judges are meant to score the fight on effective striking, octagon control and agression.

shogun landed more clean shots in every round and as he was throwing thai kicks rather then karate kicks he also hit harder.

shogun controlled the octagon and was more agressive  in every round a apart for about 20 second in the 3rd, he  was more agressive in every round including the majority of the 3rd.

those are the facts, the only thing machida did effectively was stuff shoguns shots and that only landed him in the 50/50 clinch were he got knee'ed and elbowed.


Im Sorry, but ive got to take issue with this.
 
First, there is not a chance Shogun won every round, you have to remember this is Machida's belt to lose, simply going out there and throw 1-2 combinations is not going to win you the belt, especially when more often than not in rounds 1 & 2 Machida's counters were much crisper and on the money.
 
Only when Machida lost mobility in his spring did Shogun start landing anything of significance and even then i saw only one clean shot connect with Machida's face (bloodied him up) and another hit him in the neck. The rest of the damage was to the torso and legs, to try and win a belt from a champion with body/leg kicks especially when he had Machida hurt many times and did not pursue is not going to cut a clear decision in any judges mind, it could have gone either way.
 
Rogans commentary is this match was disgusting and has turned me from a moderate fan into a "hater".
 
I had to rewatch several clips multiple times to actually comprehend that Joe was not recognising any of machida's landed shots (especially a few brutal knee's) but seemingly making love to every glancing blow Rua threw, it was simply unreal.
 
Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.
 
There is a difference in all combat sports, those who have ever competed for a belt will have been told this or know it from teachings.
 
Secondly, this is not fact as you say, its a subjective opinion based on the visual, audio and kinaesthetic information your brain took from the fight; in short your brain is bias lol.
 
I really wanted Rua to win as i am Muay Thai at my roots even though i transitioned into MMA, but when the final bell rang, i can say who i thought deserved to win, but i didnt have a clue who's hand would be raised.
 
Something interesting i picked up from Machida's corner was in the 4-5th round break his coach said "you have to find his timing!!!!", meaning even at that late stage he hadn't managed to get Rua's timings down which interests me as to the naked eye his movement was traditional Muay Thai, linear with a light front leg which i thought would have been the perfect meal for the dragon, obviously not lol.
 
Rothwell was terrible, tough as hell but completely under skilled to be fighting that calibre of fighter in his first fight, reminded me of a bigger Cabbage. Brock will cripple Cain. The only guy left with a shout is Nog with his diamond chin and submission skills.
 
I see an Anderson Silva Vs Rua fight sometime next year.
 
Suddenly the UFC divisions are looking extremely weak bar a few elite fighters in each division.
 


biggest load of crock ive read so far..

If Rua won in your opinion, then he did enough to take the belt.

Those judges needed a clue. To me, it was clear as day who won the fight and that was Rua. If you read Dana's lips when he's talking to Shogun after he says ' I had to winning that fight'. The decision was a disgrace.
The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights.




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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 22:22
bmc


i like machida but his performance was sh1t shogun should have won

as for rothwell totally sh1t i could see him getting cut from the ufc

johnson impressed me again,i bet you he's pissed missing out on sixty grand for knockout of the night for not making weight


Johnson is just insane..to hear he sometimes walks at 220lbs and fights 170lb.. that is NUTS!!
The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights.




illmatic
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 22:25
TheGunslinger


powerpusher



Its a paradox imo, did Rua win? Yes. Did he do enough to take the belt? No.

      
 

but its mma not muay thai. you win for winning not because you are the champ





Win for winning? That doesn't even make sense, he didnt do enough to take the belt off Machida, period, and suffered for it.




Let me break it down for you.. you win for winning the fight... not becuase you're the champion and 'the other guy beat you but not enough to take the belt' BS
The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights.




jango
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 26 October 2009 22:53
illmatic


bmc


i like machida but his performance was sh1t shogun should have won

as for rothwell totally sh1t i could see him getting cut from the ufc

johnson impressed me again,i bet you he's pissed missing out on sixty grand for knockout of the night for not making weight


Johnson is just insane..to hear he sometimes walks at 220lbs and fights 170lb.. that is NUTS!!


If that's true then wtf is he doing trying to be a welterweight? He's a middleweight. I wonder what he's scared of?


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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 27 October 2009 17:40
watched the fight, to the guys saying machida scored a lot of "counter strikes"

Lyoto Machida
Mauricio Rua
50/105
Total Strikes Landed/Thrown
89/155
48%
Percentage
57%
16/54
Total Arm Strikes Landed/Thrown
16/50
30%
Percentage
32%
15
Power Strikes Landed
13
1
Clinch Strikes Landed
3
34/51
Total Leg Strikes Landed/Thrown
73/105
67%
Percentage
70%
21
Kicks Landed
46
13
Knees Landed
27
0/0
Ground Strikes Landed/Thrown
0/0
0%
Percentage
0%
0/0
Takedowns/Attempts
0/3
0
Submission Attempts
0
0
Reversals
0
0
Dominant Positions
0

I think that 100% without a shadow of doubt proves Machida deserved the win.

People always argue but avoid the facts
 
EDIT ******* THE TABLE HASNT PASTED WELL AT ALL. TABLE AT LINK BELOW
 
http://www.mmaconvert.com/2009/10/26/cecil-peoples-explains-why-he-scored-the-fight-for-machida-compustrike-stats/
<message edited by S777 on 27 October 2009 17:43>

Rasputin
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 27 October 2009 18:34
Ok as a statistician by profession your talking out of your arse look at it again Shogun wins on most % and had more knee strikes ok his power punches werent as high but what constitutes a power punch. I can fiddle stats to prove life on mars if i needed to. As already said a real fight fan wouldnt believe the stats. He was robbed end off
Ra Ra Rasputin lover of the Russian Queen, Ra Ra Ra Rasputin Russia's greatest love machine (Allegedly)

Mr.M
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 27 October 2009 18:45
S777


watched the fight, to the guys saying machida scored a lot of "counter strikes"

Lyoto Machida
Mauricio Rua
50/105
Total Strikes Landed/Thrown
89/155
48%
Percentage
57%
16/54
Total Arm Strikes Landed/Thrown
16/50
30%
Percentage
32%
15
Power Strikes Landed
13
1
Clinch Strikes Landed
3
34/51
Total Leg Strikes Landed/Thrown
73/105
67%
Percentage
70%
21
Kicks Landed
46
13
Knees Landed
27
0/0
Ground Strikes Landed/Thrown
0/0
0%
Percentage
0%
0/0
Takedowns/Attempts
0/3
0
Submission Attempts
0
0
Reversals
0
0
Dominant Positions
0

I think that 100% without a shadow of doubt proves Machida deserved the win.

People always argue but avoid the facts
 
EDIT ******* THE TABLE HASNT PASTED WELL AT ALL. TABLE AT LINK BELOW
 
http://www.mmaconvert.com/2009/10/26/cecil-peoples-explains-why-he-scored-the-fight-for-machida-compustrike-stats/


o my god.. read it again!!! the only one which machida has over Rua is power strikes landed, and thats only by 2!!!!!!
so by goin by the table u have posted, rua should have won the fight!!
read the rest of the text on that link.. it even says that rua dominated the fight!!!!

S777
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 27 October 2009 19:11
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

I meant Rua deserved the win

HAHAHAHAHA

Mr.M
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Re:UFC 104 spoiler - 27 October 2009 19:36
haha... phew! :-)
i thought u were goin craazy..

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