Are gains from DS really keepable?

I was thinking about this today.  If the gains were keepable wouldnt the people who have run several cycles be absolutely massive especially if they are gaining 5 to 8 ilbs each cycle?

The key to this mate is what the gains are - lean muscle tissue gains should absolutely be keepable if diet, rest and training are in check

Thing is, most of the gains made are not lean muscle tissue, some being fat and some water

In my opinion a seasoned user should be very pleased with 2lb lean tissue gain over a 4 week cycle - move to injectable aas and the story is of course a different one, though not markedly so once a user is considerably past their genetic potential

Mean to add - 1st cycles will also be a different case, similarly cycles ran by those that are not yet anywhere near their genetic potential

Celt, just to clarify what you mean mate - people running cycles while not anywhere near their genetic potential will experience better quality gains than somebody close to or past their genetic potential, all other things (diet, rest, etc) being equal?

Shape up competition journal

There's certainly potential for that mate - its not a steadfast rule though

Consider the trainer that's ran many cycles and is past genetic potential - the body is effectively fighting against adding mass. The newb trainer however may start at 11st and could naturally get to a lean 14st with good diet/training/rest - if they run cycles at 11st their body is happy to grow, so will do.

Imo DS gains are tough to keep. Ive ran epi and sd, i find most mass gains are keepable but my strength gradually comes down which is shi*. Thats one of the reason im thinking of running a test e cycle soon.

Muscle Finesse Board Representative

Icemansoldier


Imo DS gains are tough to keep. Ive ran epi and sd, i find most mass gains are keepable but my strength gradually comes down which is shi*. Thats one of the reason im thinking of running a test e cycle soon.

Found the oposite, lost the mass, kept the strength

I'd rather it be the other way round though

10 Week Test-C Cycle
http://www.worldofselfimprovement.com/index.html

Interesting......Test e's the way foward mate

Muscle Finesse Board Representative

I've managed to keep pretty much al my gains from a previous SD cycle. Strength did go down a little on certain excersises, but not a lot.

I think if you have suffucient PCT and keep diet and training in check (ie do not reduce cals through PCT and keep lifting heavy as poss), then there is no reason why you cant keep the majority of your gains.

Current big lifts:

Bench Press - 120kg 4 reps
Deadlift - 240kg 3 reps
Squat (ass to grass) - 140kg 5 reps
Leg Press - 480kg 16 reps

Body weight: 16 stone 3lbs

Icemansoldier


Interesting......Test e's the way foward mate

how will that be any different?

^^^^My thoughts too

???

Icemansoldier


Imo DS gains are tough to keep. Ive ran epi and sd, i find most mass gains are keepable but my strength gradually comes down which is shi*. Thats one of the reason im thinking of running a test e cycle soon.

Similar here for me. Ran an Epi/EQ-Plax stack for six weeks back in June/July and was pleased with the gains, particularly in strength. However, after a decent (IMO) PCT and consistent training since then the strength has dropped and I'm  back to practically the same level as before the cycle.

Arfie

Icemansoldier


Imo DS gains are tough to keep. Ive ran epi and sd, i find most mass gains are keepable but my strength gradually comes down which is shi*. Thats one of the reason im thinking of running a test e cycle soon.

Similar here for me. Ran an Epi/EQ-Plax stack for six weeks back in June/July and was pleased with the gains, particularly in strength. However, after a decent (IMO) PCT and consistent training since then the strength has dropped and I'm  back to practically the same level as before the cycle.

But when you say you lost strength, where you still trying to lift heavy? And where you still eating the same amount of cals as when you where on cycle?
Also, what was your PCT mate?

Current big lifts:

Bench Press - 120kg 4 reps
Deadlift - 240kg 3 reps
Squat (ass to grass) - 140kg 5 reps
Leg Press - 480kg 16 reps

Body weight: 16 stone 3lbs

I've never lost a single pound during pct or after unless 'desired' i.e through a cut. But then i'm certainly not a frequent user of ph/ds and only have 2 previous (and 5 years apart) cycles under my belt.

Those in the know shape em like a bow!

Cynostane Log

At the end of the day the reason your average recreational trainer like myself who posts on this site, does not live just to train and so will have off periods due to other commitments and are not taking it to the extreme etc

As such IMO you will inevitably loose gains made.
 
But if diet, training rest are in check all the time I don’t see why gains made on cycle are not keepable.

Mass-Plex Sponsored Journo by Bodybuildingwarehouse

Taz


At the end of the day the reason your average recreational trainer like myself who posts on this site, does not live just to train and so will have off periods due to other commitments and are not taking it to the extreme etc

As such IMO you will inevitably loose gains made.
 
But if diet, training rest are in check all the time I don’t see why gains made on cycle are not keepable.

Agree with the above. A good effective PCT protocol makes all the difference IME

I can't recall what forum it was but I threw one little c.unt into a sentence and you'd have thought I'd bummed one of their grandmas

Icemansoldier


Interesting......Test e's the way foward mate

Well I kept about 6lbs....gained 12lbs....so not bad IMO

10 Week Test-C Cycle
http://www.worldofselfimprovement.com/index.html

I forgot to mention that i have also only ever used 'dry' compounds so anyone using the 'wet' compounds would very likely lose a lot of water weight post cycle etc.

I think losing gains can be due to:
1) Not adjusting training volume/routine during pct
2) Insufficient pct (not long enough or inadequate products for the job etc)
3) Reducing calories in fear of fat gain
4) Not taking into account the nature of the compound (wet or dry...)

First ever ph i did i went up to a very lean 89kgs, i kept every single lb until i decided to have a particularly strict cut a few months later. Second cycle i ran was hdrol and made good lean gains and havent lost a lb to this day. I just keep it low voluem and heavy during pct add in creatine etc.....

Those in the know shape em like a bow!

Cynostane Log

Taz


At the end of the day the reason your average recreational trainer like myself who posts on this site, does not live just to train and so will have off periods due to other commitments and are not taking it to the extreme etc

As such IMO you will inevitably loose gains made.
 
But if diet, training rest are in check all the time I don’t see why gains made on cycle are not keepable.

Agree with this
 
I'll gain like most on a cycle (be it otc or test-e). but Inevitabley you'll lose some size as your own test production starts to come back (through and after pct), even when it's back it'll not be able to sustain the amount of new muscle/size gained from all the steriods ingested or injected (av. mens test is around 250ng/dl to 850 ng/dl). Hence top or even regional level bodybuilders often stay on and alternate dosages for long periods of time.
 
Ice you'll have impressive gains from test-e (diet and training permitted) but when you come off you'll be faced with the same problem's as anyone else.
 
chart on av. test production male/age
http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html
 

Interesting reading this. I would add that from experience with working with many, many people that upon cessation of steroid use, the body will revert in time to it's natural maximum.

If you take DS/PH's when you are not already there then yes you will, with good training and supplements keep the majority of your gains.

Certainly I do not know many who would fall into the category of people who are already at or near their natural max.

Predatornutrition.com

PredatorNutrition


Interesting reading this. I would add that from experience with working with many, many people that upon cessation of steroid use, the body will revert in time to it's natural maximum.

If you take DS/PH's when you are not already there then yes you will, with good training and supplements keep the majority of your gains.

Certainly I do not know many who would fall into the category of people who are already at or near their natural max.

But for some this could be a considerable length of time and it may never return to past highs.
 
e.g I did a small deca only cycle many years ago (mainly for its reputation for improving joints). It did the job, joints felt great and libido was sky high (no deca dick). when i finished this 8 weeker (only 200mg per week) i did nolva pct. Weeks after I still didn't feel i had recovered ( decreased muscle mass, bouts of depression and low energy, lack of libid etc ) at the time this certainly wasn't me. previous to this cycle I had energy and enthusiasm to burn and my libido was always on overdrive. so I redid my pct this time using clomid and Trib. weeks later and still the same. I had bloods done and these were compared to one's i had done some what previously. There was a marked decrease and now at the lower end (270). I've never had them done since so can't comment on what they are now, but I still swear to this day that I've never fully recovered from that deca cycle.
Yes I'm older but it was like a tap had been turned overnight to reduce the flow and was never reopened.

I have never kept strength gains, i hit PB's while on cycle this summer, kept the training intensity up, same diet, yet i cant shift what i was doing. Very frustrating and leads me to believe that pro hormones are only a short term benefit.

My Journal
First Choice Supplements Rep Shane

Shane, it could be down to training as you have said you have kept the intensity the same.

When I cycle for strenght I push myself hard and I keep the intensity hard for the first week of pct but I then drop the weight down and up the reps. The idea being to solidify what I had gained if that makes sense?

So for example say my PB was 90kg for 5 on a lift.

On cycle I may go upto 120 for 5.

Post cycle I will drop the wieght but prob do like 100kg for 8.

Also I rate have a week off or even 2 weeks lifting much lowwer weights before pushing heavy again as your body will not beable to keep pushing forward regarding heavy lifts all the time, its just not possible imo. By working yourself in this way your lifts will go down as your body is getting tiered.

Mass-Plex Sponsored Journo by Bodybuildingwarehouse

Injury can be the biggest downfall, you can keep 80% of your gains with a good diet and good heavy routine but you develop an injury and it's then hard to get back to 'that' weight...rotator cuff being prime example, years of hardwork can be seriously undone..

strikalite


Injury can be the biggest downfall, you can keep 80% of your gains with a good diet and good heavy routine but you develop an injury and it's then hard to get back to 'that' weight...rotator cuff being prime example, years of hardwork can be seriously undone..

Tell me about it, i used to consistenly bench 135kg for 6+ reps now i cant get anywhere near that, doubt i ever will either!Damn rotator cuff injury has buggered me up bigtime.

Those in the know shape em like a bow!

Cynostane Log

^^I never had any aches or tendon/muscle niggles whilst on Sus+deca(the deca protected everything!)yet I've been clean for nearly 6 years now and had rotator cuff injury, elbow niggles, knee issues too...it's a different world in the gym these days, desperate to keep injury free for one...that's why that feeling you get whilst being 'on' and being able to totally push yourself without having an injury worry is SO addictive!

Kraven

PredatorNutrition


Interesting reading this. I would add that from experience with working with many, many people that upon cessation of steroid use, the body will revert in time to it's natural maximum.

If you take DS/PH's when you are not already there then yes you will, with good training and supplements keep the majority of your gains.

Certainly I do not know many who would fall into the category of people who are already at or near their natural max.

But for some this could be a considerable length of time and it may never return to past highs.
 
e.g I did a small deca only cycle many years ago (mainly for its reputation for improving joints). It did the job, joints felt great and libido was sky high (no deca dick). when i finished this 8 weeker (only 200mg per week) i did nolva pct. Weeks after I still didn't feel i had recovered ( decreased muscle mass, bouts of depression and low energy, lack of libid etc ) at the time this certainly wasn't me. previous to this cycle I had energy and enthusiasm to burn and my libido was always on overdrive. so I redid my pct this time using clomid and Trib. weeks later and still the same. I had bloods done and these were compared to one's i had done some what previously. There was a marked decrease and now at the lower end (270). I've never had them done since so can't comment on what they are now, but I still swear to this day that I've never fully recovered from that deca cycle.
Yes I'm older but it was like a tap had been turned overnight to reduce the flow and was never reopened.

Yeah I have seen this with deca specifically which is why I always preferred boldenone as an anabolic base where androgenic side effects are feared.

I think we are speaking at cross purposes above though. what i meant to say is by natural maximum is the overall size gained not anything relating to hormone function. E.g, say your natural non-prohormone maximum weight is 200lbs at 10% bf. You could take PH's to get up to 210 or 220 but eventually, after a long enough time off, your body will revert to the 200lb natural maximum.

Of course different people will have different natural limits but ultimately you can only support so much muscle mass with your body's natural test levels and it is nothing like what can be built with anabolics.

Predatornutrition.com

Taz


At the end of the day the reason your average recreational trainer like myself who posts on this site, does not live just to train and so will have off periods due to other commitments and are not taking it to the extreme etc

As such IMO you will inevitably loose gains made.
 
But if diet, training rest are in check all the time I don’t see why gains made on cycle are not keepable.

Totally agree.

A big factor in why people lose gains is that:

1) They train and diet harder whilst on cycle because they don't want to "waste" the DS / PH
2) When they finish the cycle, they chill out, diet and training go downhill, as they expect to lose what they've made

People train harder because they don't want to waste the £30 they spent on the DS - just the same as when you go to a restaurant and you'll eat till the plate's clean, even if you're stuffed, because you don't want to "waste" the expensive meal.

The real waste is in not staying consistant after cycles - consistancy is the best PCT anyone could have.

Bodybuilding Warehouse

Daari

Icemansoldier


Interesting......Test e's the way foward mate

how will that be any different?

My comment was aimed at awg as he also plans to do a test cycle as do i, i didnt mean in general that its the way foward, although if you told some people on this forum you ran DS, i bet they would say test e is the way foward.

Muscle Finesse Board Representative

arent u like 18 iceman??
i have kept most gains form DS cycles t be honest and strength drops have been only slight.. with my test cycle however i think i have had a 'considerable' drop in strength.. but this was down to a couple of small enforced lay offs too..

with proper diet and training, and consistency when the gear is finished, gains can be very keepable.. whether its DS or AAS

My Youtube Vids

The MRM Way