Calories v Carbs

Im looking to do a cut, but Im seriously confused here wit all des people who go on about keepin carbs low to cut fat after training/towards the end of the day. Could someone tell me what I should be lookin at? keeping calories under 2,400 according to my stats or keeping carbs very low? 

kcals

a cutting diet does not have to or need to be low carb

keep protein high, and use carbs to fuel your workouts and your working day

Although I have always cut by having carbs around morning training, with the rest of the day protien/fat meals, I've often wondered...if one 'preferred' eating carbs over fats could they cut succesfully if they were on target calorie wise? (assuming a sufficient intake of EFA's)

I hurt myself today, to see if I still feel. I focus on the pain, the only thing that's real. Trent Reznor- Nine Inch Nails.

Although I have always cut by having carbs around morning training, with the rest of the day protien/fat meals, I've often wondered...if one 'preferred' eating carbs over fats could they cut succesfully if they were on target calorie wise? (assuming a sufficient intake of EFA's)

I hurt myself today, to see if I still feel. I focus on the pain, the only thing that's real. Trent Reznor- Nine Inch Nails.

Cutting carbs first helps many people when cutting, but dropping carbs too low in an effort to cut, is a slipperly slope to making yourself carb sensitive. Try and keep all aspects of diet as high as possible, whilst still losing weight. Up the output, do more cardio etc before you begin to cut the food.

The main reason people cut carbs to reduce calories is that they are sensible and get the right amount of protein to keep their hard earned muscle.
when you do that you will get some fat as well - which means that 2 elements of your diet have already been pretty much set.
what you are left with is manipulating carbs to produce the dietary calorie deficit you need.

Which is why a cutting plan that works includes cardio - because there are 2 ways to get a calorie deficit - 1) cut calories 2) increase expenditure.

and the smart people know that it is better to expend 5000 and eat 4000 than itis to expend 2000 and eat 1000 - because on too few calories your body goes - oh bugger where did the food go - and starts in starvation mode - completely counterproductive when trying to be lean and muscluar

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Big Les


The main reason people cut carbs to reduce calories is that they are sensible and get the right amount of protein to keep their hard earned muscle.
when you do that you will get some fat as well - which means that 2 elements of your diet have already been pretty much set.

Just to clarify, Big Les. By this do you mean that by keeping protein high you are also getting your fats from chicken and beef, eggs etc and that this should be sufficient?

cheers.

I hurt myself today, to see if I still feel. I focus on the pain, the only thing that's real. Trent Reznor- Nine Inch Nails.

Yep the incidental fat from quality protein sources, including fish, is, imho, enough.

Im sure the fat guru's may say different :)

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As Les says it is for ease. Counting calories is for many just not practical.

Also add to this that another segment of people don;t handle carbohydrate to well then for a significant number reducing carb intake is the easiest way to get the result they want.

Just to add though that protein is kept high for muscle retention yes, but there's other things that protein does that help you stay lean or get leaner besides it's animo acids preventing your amino acids being used.

Drew Price BSc MSc
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Yep the incidental fat from quality protein sources, including fish, is, imho, enough.

Totally agree with you there.

stuart hamilton
Hamiltons Fitness
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Just to add though that protein is kept high for muscle retention

Go for adequate protein, but it's the continuation of your muscle building weights program that will keep your muscle, not your diet.

stuart hamilton
Hamiltons Fitness
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Big Les, Drewsky and hamiltons fitness:

Would you therefore suggest, then, that when bulking one should just concentrate on protein and carbs for calorie intake safe in the knowledge that fats are taken care of from protein sources?

(sorry for slight thread hijack, but I think it's relevant to OP's question)

Cheers

I hurt myself today, to see if I still feel. I focus on the pain, the only thing that's real. Trent Reznor- Nine Inch Nails.

hamiltonsfitness

Just to add though that protein is kept high for muscle retention

Go for adequate protein, but it's the continuation of your muscle building weights program that will keep your muscle, not your diet.

That's a partial quote and not really what I was getting in the sentence. I was actually saying don;t be blinkered and keep in mind the other advantageous properties of protein

As you and I both know , it's not this or that, you need both in place to effectively keep the muscle.

Drew Price BSc MSc
Nutritionist and S&C coach
facebook.com/DrewPriceNutritionist
 
 
 

ReRaise

Would you therefore suggest, then, that when bulking one should just concentrate on protein and carbs for calorie intake safe in the knowledge that fats are taken care of from protein sources?

Sure, this is probably a good way to look at it for some. However as you have to keep in mind different people thrive on different levels of fat/pro/cho: the nutrient itself is an issue (be it fat, pro or cho) but so also is where you find it (food types and quality) and also what it displaces when you have a lot of if.

I know people who could not reach their goals using the above method, I know those who could.

Drew Price BSc MSc
Nutritionist and S&C coach
facebook.com/DrewPriceNutritionist
 
 
 

hamiltonsfitness

Yep the incidental fat from quality protein sources, including fish, is, imho, enough.

Totally agree with you there.

Just as Oranges are not the only fruit, cod is not the only fish.

Without knowing what type(s) of fish someone is eating, only God can say that it's providing all the omega-3 fats required.

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how did I know Nige was going to say that!

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ps: healthy diet includes oily fish at least once a week dont it :)

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200g of oily fish twice a week is better

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Big Les


ps: healthy diet includes oily fish at least once a week dont it :)

It doesn't need to fish, oily or not, in it at all.

stuart hamilton
Hamiltons Fitness
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Stu: er according to an awful lot of people - a healthy diet does include fish.

Interestingly I have uncovered a fair bit of science study evidence that although a hypocalorific diet is the single largest determinant of muscle anabolism, that within that protein and carbohydrates have the anabolic effect - and that actually lipids are unimportant in terms of anabolism/anabolic signalling.

Which of course goes along with what is in this little article! http://articles.musclet...rticle-mass-gaining.aspx

Those who want to look at the importance of protein and carbohydrate (as well as proper training) who are of a scientific mind can read

Wilkinson, S., Phillips, S., Atherton, P., Patel, R., Yarasheski, K., Tarnopolsky, M. & Rennie, M. (2008) Differential effects of resistance and endurance exercise in the fed state on signalling molecule phophorylation and protein synthesis in human muscle. Journal of Physiology, 586 (15), pp.3701-3717. 



If you send me a pm with your email I can send on the pdf - its not open access
as far as I know

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Stu: er according to an awful lot of people - a healthy diet does include fish.

That would imply that it would not be possible to be a vegetarian and have a healthy diet?

stuart hamilton
Hamiltons Fitness
Colchester, UK
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hamiltonsfitness

Stu: er according to an awful lot of people - a healthy diet does include fish.

That would imply that it would not be possible to be a vegetarian and have a healthy diet?

Thing is - actually it is more difficult to have a healthy diet when veggie - not by general population standards whereby actually eating fruit and veg counts as healthy - but in terms of complete nutrition - then certainly is more tricky without meat and fish to cover yourself for all your micro requirements.

Any veggie should know this and have their diet planned accordingly :)

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Sorry to split hairs Les, but are you saying that it is possible to have a healthy diet and be a vegetarian, i.e. not eat any fish?

I don't want to upset you as I agree with pretty much everything you say, but I think it's important that people don't get the idea that you can't be healthy without eating fish, as I know of vegetarians that go against their principles because they have been told that they HAVE to eat at least fish.

stuart hamilton
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yes you can have a healthy diet without meat or fish - you can have a healthy veggie or vegan diet.

However, by not having meat and fish you make it harder to get certain micronutrients; yes there are conversion pathways and alternatives - however for some it means much more careful diet planning (than the average joe for sure) and for others we are not sure just how efficient that pathway really is.

So yes - you can be very healthy - to say otherwise would be a bit daft !

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Not trying to hijack, just have a quick question to HamiltonsFitness and Les, would you say about 100g of fat for a 6'3 70kg male is ok?
I am currently getting this from nuts/egg yolks etc as i dont have much fat in my diet at all! e.g. dont eat lots of red meat, oil etc

im aiming for 180-200+p, 100f, rest carbs to meet 2600 kcal a day for a lean bulk, does this sound ok?

I think lean bulking is a bad concept

I also think 2600 is not a lot to grow on

100g is what 900 calories - in my diet fat content is usually in the 20-30% range just by meeting protein and carb levels for growing - and for you to have 100g a day I would be doing you about 3000kcal a day - which is also about where I would start a good bulking diet.

its all here http://articles.musclet...rticle-mass-gaining.aspx

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hamiltonsfitness

Big Les
ps: healthy diet includes oily fish at least once a week dont it :)

It doesn't need to fish, oily or not, in it at all.

Well, if somebody wants to be as grumpy as you Stu, by all means leave out the oily fish!

DHA is good for the brain (and women are much better converters of DPA -> DHA than men are). It's possible to buy vegan DHA (of algal origin), so vegetarians & vegans can have a healthy diet.

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better to expend 5000 and eat 4000 than itis to expend 2000 and eat 1000

Probably best advice i found when i was cutting.  I didn't actually worry to much about my calorie intake i just made sure i burnt shed loads and lifted as heavy as i could.

Big Les


I think lean bulking is a bad concept

I also think 2600 is not a lot to grow on

100g is what 900 calories - in my diet fat content is usually in the 20-30% range just by meeting protein and carb levels for growing - and for you to have 100g a day I would be doing you about 3000kcal a day - which is also about where I would start a good bulking diet.

its all here http://articles.musclet...rticle-mass-gaining.aspx

cheers mate, when i say lean bulking i mean getting big without masses of excess fat, i understand i will inevitably gain some body fat but id much rather be able to cut down in a few weeks and be real defined as oppose to a few months!

I have just changed to eating this way and am experementing at the moment e.g. im eating 2600 ed and seeing if i gain 0.5~lb a week. if i dont gain that much i will up it to 2800 etc, if i gain more ill up cardio/lower cals

Do you think this is a good idea? or would you reccomend just jumping to 3000? i feared this would encourage fat gain, (a few months ago i was eating around 1200~ kcal a day! not anorexic lol just not hungry)

Not trying to hijack, just have a quick question to HamiltonsFitness and Les, would you say about 100g of fat for a 6'3 70kg male is ok?

100g of fat is more than enough, of course it depends on what type it is, of the wrong sort then it is way too much.

As for 2600 kcals it depends on what you are burning. I'm currently 100kg 'off season' eat around 2600 kcals, but someone else burning more would need more.

stuart hamilton
Hamiltons Fitness
Colchester, UK
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cheers mate, im currently getting my fat via nuts, egg yolks, salmon(other oily fish) and tiny bits of OO, This sound ok?

think is im only 70kg and have been eating bang on these calories/macros for only 9 days but i havent fluctuated in weight at all! im aiming to put on about 0.5lb a week so should i wait for 2-3 weeks with this diet or just bump it up to 2800 ed now?

My muscles feel bigger/harder since eating more and my recovery is deffonatly up!

0.5lb of weight a week is both quite a lot if you're trying to keep the bodyfat within reason and also very difficult to measure on a day by day basis.

I would keep to this kcal for at least 4 to 6 weeks before making any changes.

In my experience I have not needed to add anything for fat, enough fat comes into your diet anyway, even if you are eating really clean.

stuart hamilton
Hamiltons Fitness
Colchester, UK
www.HamiltonsFitness.co.uk  Gym
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hamiltonsfitness
0.5lb of weight a week is both quite a lot if you're trying to keep the bodyfat within reason and also very difficult to measure on a day by day basis.

Agree.

hamiltonsfitness
I would keep to this kcal for at least 4 to 6 weeks before making any changes.

Agree.

hamiltonsfitness
In my experience I have not needed to add anything for fat, enough fat comes into your diet anyway, even if you are eating really clean.

Disagree. Your fat intake is very low, Stu. As you're virtually vegan, unless you're supplementing with vegan DHA, your brain is crying out for some DHA as men are p*ss-poor converters of DPA->DHA compared to women.

By the way, did you know that soluble fibre is converted by gut bacteria into short-chain saturated fatty acids (mostly butyric acid)? So your high-carbohydrate, ultra-low-fat diet effectively contains quite a lot of saturated fat. Food for thought, eh?

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Although - the metabolism of short chain fatty acids produced by gut bacteria is different than the saturated fat derived from your diet :)

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As you're virtually vegan

Really, this goes to show me how quick you are to jump to conclusions. From this I would suspect that you come to your conclusion first and then only look for evidence until you find enough to convince yourself of your existing hypothesis.

A lot to conclude from a little sentance, I know, but that's how you do it isn't it.

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cheers everyone, Problem is if i dont add nuts etc i wont get much fat at all, dont eat chicken skin, hardly any red meant, dont cook in oil etc!

Damn i read a few places that 0.5lb a week is a good target for max muscle/glycogen gain without adding the fat! so ill stick with it for at least a month, would 0.5lb a month be more realistic? or every 2 weeks?

hamiltonsfitness

As you're virtually vegan

Really, this goes to show me how quick you are to jump to conclusions. From this I would suspect that you come to your conclusion first and then only look for evidence until you find enough to convince yourself of your existing hypothesis. A lot to conclude from a little sentance, I know, but that's how you do it isn't it.

Are you saying that you do eat oily fish? I could have sworn that you have stated on many occasions that you don't eat any sort of fish and therefore don't supplement with either fish or krill oil.

Ergo: you're virtually vegan and therefore have zero dietary intake of DHA unless you're supplementing with vegan DHA. What part of what I wrote did you not understand?

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What part of what I wrote did you not understand?

I believe I understand all of what you say, but I don't think you do.

Not eating fish doesn't make you virtually vegan.

stuart hamilton
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Disagree. Your fat intake is very low, Stu. As you're virtually vegan, unless you're supplementing with vegan DHA, your brain is crying out for some DHA as men are p*ss-poor converters of DPA->DHA compared to women

Except for the lack of data to indicate deficits in brain development among vegetarians

Surrogate outcomes are nice and all but always preliminary. And why it is far too early to say for certain wither way ^^

-

I'm not going to get into an argument over wording/semantics/w.h.y. You don't eat fish. Do you supplement with vegan DHA?

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