Gradually reducing carbs, or just stopping?

Im cutting in April and I was discussing cutting diets with a mate of mine. He's been very successful with cutting diets in the past, I've seen him get down to sub 10% on numerous occassions and I'm always amazed at how much LBM he manages to retain. Point being, I trust his opinion greatly. He is an MMA athlete though, not a bodybuilder.

Anyway he says what he finds the most effective is getting to a point where you're eating lots of protein, lots of fats, and basically no starchy carbs (so carbs only from veg). This is basically what I had planned on doing anyway, but he says it would be better to gradually reduce the amount of carbs in my diet over a period of weeks, rather than just cutting them out at the start.

He says the benefit of this would be that cutting out carbs from the outset would make me very tired and lethargic and also make one more likely to want to cheat. But personally I think I would find it easier to just stick to a hard and fast 'NO CARBS' rule, it takes away any variables and even if it did make me tired at the start, I have heard reports of many people feeling much more energetic on keto style diets.

But would there be any benefit in gradually reducing carbs over just cutting out carbs from the outset, in terms of holding onto muscle mass? Or will the difference be negligible?

Also finally, I weigh just around 100kg, I have absolutely no idea what my maintenance calories are so I have no idea what kind of number I should be shooting for when cutting. I know this will be different for everybody, but if anyone could give me just a ball park figure that maybe I could start with, and then monitor and adjust from there.

Thanks!

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

Have a read of the Dave Palumbo diet if you want something easy to follow.

You would want the 220lbs male- you won't have that much lean tissue, but its provides a good start point. Start with cardio first thing at 30mins each morning, if weight isn't dropping, increase cardio 5-10minutes each day.

Ignore the weight the first week as will lose 5-10lbs from carbs alone. Second week is a better indication of starting weight.

Up cardio, then introduce fat burners, then tweak the diet. You want to be eating as much food as possible before you need to start reducing it. Do it logically and in slow steps- I learnt last year about doing it all too quickly and the result was feeling terrible all day and losing both muscle and fat.

 

How do people on zero carbs manage to even do cardio let alone weights? I have headaches and feel very hungry on a low-carb diet so I don't know how people survive on zero carb.

Why not eat say

Mon - going for weights -eat medium carbs
Tue - doing cardio/walking - eat low carbs
Wed - same as Mon
Thu - same as Tue

You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.

 

Chrisla


You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.

Don't carbs provide energy? Can you work out in the gym properly on zero carbs just as if you were properly carbed up? How many marathon runners are on the atkins diet for example?

Chrisla


You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.



I'm thinking of cutting carbs. Dya not think its harder to train weights without carbs. I've already reduced them and noticed on back days i.e. when doing dead lift that my exercises afterwards are harder and I'm a bit shaky..feel like I'm lacking energy. I take even deeper breaths to try and compensate on other lifts.

And I still haven't worked this forum out...my reply is all greyed out!

Bluenose17

I'm thinking of cutting carbs. Dya not think its harder to train weights without carbs. I've already reduced them and noticed on back days i.e. when doing dead lift that my exercises afterwards are harder and I'm a bit shaky..feel like I'm lacking energy. I take even deeper breaths to try and compensate on other lifts.

Your experiance is precisely what I meant.

You will have plenty of energy, the body switches to burn fat for fuel.
As for marathon runners, not really applicable. We are trying to conserve muscle tissue and lose fat, not run miles and miles and look like string beans.    

 

Bluenose17

Chrisla


You will have a slight headache for the first day or so, after that you will be fine.
Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't.



I'm thinking of cutting carbs. Dya not think its harder to train weights without carbs. I've already reduced them and noticed on back days i.e. when doing dead lift that my exercises afterwards are harder and I'm a bit shaky..feel like I'm lacking energy. I take even deeper breaths to try and compensate on other lifts.

If you drop carbs, you need to replace the energy source with fats. I manage 4 sessions of high intensity training a week with 35mins cardio first thing 7days a week

Here is my current diet:

Meal 1.
 
6 eggs scrambled,
One large scoop PB
2000mg Omega 3
1000mg Evening Primrose Oil,
 Multi Vit

Meal 2.
 
2scoops Whey isolate
15ml Flax oil
1 psyllium husk
Meal 3.
200g chicken breast,
15ml EVOO
broccoli
2000mg Omega 3
1000mg Eve Primrose,

Meal 4.
2scoops Whey Isolate
2table spoons peanut butter
1 psyllium husk
 
 
Meal 5.
200g chicken breast
5 florets brocolli,
15ml EVOO

 

Meal 6.
6whole egg scrambled
1000mg Evening Primrose oil
2000mg Omega 3
large scoop of peanut butter

 

Chrisla


You will have plenty of energy, the body switches to burn fat for fuel.
As for marathon runners, not really applicable. We are trying to conserve muscle tissue and lose fat, not run miles and miles and look like string beans.    

Then can you give any examples of weightlifters or bodybuilders who lift massive weights on zero carb? Can you show us your own journel, maybe you are deadlifting 300kg+ on a zero carb diet, lets see this.

Don't bodybuilders diet down before the competition, they don't have 3-5% BF all year round. A keto diet could help a bodybuilder get in shape for a competition but how many eat like that 24/7 365 days a year?

Chrisla


You will have plenty of energy, the body switches to burn fat for fuel.




I see what you mean and think if I rest enough between sets my body can run off my fat reserves, but on big lifts like dead lifts and squats i'm a little sceptical as I think you will need to draw from your glycogen stores as these exercises tend to shoot your heart rate up thus your body needing to switch to carbs as a source (i,.e. glycogen)  as it can't metobolize fat quick enough thus me feeling weak and shaky?

Sh it man did it again. Responded in grey!

john93 - the whole point of Keto diets is that your brain goes into ketosis, meaning it will start to use ketone bodies (fats) for all its energy supplies (this is grossly, grossly oversimplified, but I don't even fully understand the physiological reasons for it myself). Generally speaking it should take a few days (minimum 48 hours, up to 4 days I think) before your brain goes into ketosis, which means for these first few days yes you will feel tired and lethargic because your body is not used to solely using fat for its energy and it will be missing carbs.

Simiarly as you say you have felt tired on low carb diets, the difference being with a low carb diet the brain still uses carbs as the body's primary energy source - and if you're not giving your body much carbs then obviously you won't have much energy. If you cut out carbs completely, then you force the brain into ketosis, it starts using fats for energy. I have heard many many reports of people feeling far more energised, in and out of the gym, when on this kind of diet.

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

john93

Then can you give any examples of weightlifters or bodybuilders who lift massive weights on zero carb?

Um, there aren't any...? If you're bulking/in your off season (bodybuilding) or you're a weightlifter or powerlifter training for strength, you need carbs.

Keto is used for losing weight/losing fat (ie. cutting). Nobody would use a no carb diet if they're trying to get bigger or stronger. The benefits of ketosis are that you can retain energy and therefore strength in the gym, it is an effective means of damage limitation when in a caloric deficit.

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

CitizenKane


john93 - the whole point of Keto diets is that your brain goes into ketosis, meaning it will start to use ketone bodies (fats) for all its energy supplies (this is grossly, grossly oversimplified, but I don't even fully understand the physiological reasons for it myself). Generally speaking it should take a few days (minimum 48 hours, up to 4 days I think) before your brain goes into ketosis, which means for these first few days yes you will feel tired and lethargic because your body is not used to solely using fat for its energy and it will be missing carbs.

Simiarly as you say you have felt tired on low carb diets, the difference being with a low carb diet the brain still uses carbs as the body's primary energy source - and if you're not giving your body much carbs then obviously you won't have much energy. If you cut out carbs completely, then you force the brain into ketosis, it starts using fats for energy. I have heard many many reports of people feeling far more energised, in and out of the gym, when on this kind of diet.

So you think in this Keto state you can carry on with heavy lifts such as dead lift? or do you cut the dead lift out on a cutting diet?

Of course you can keep lifting heavy on the big compounds.

Bare in mind this will be my first ever cut, but nonetheless: I believe when cutting it is important to continue lifting as heavy as you would normally. The body is capable of adapting to mad situations. I don't think it's possible to add muscle while in a caloric deficit, but I can't see any problem with maintaining strength. As long as your diet is in check and you're getting enough protein, I can't really see why not?

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

Well I suppose the only real way to find out is to try it. I'm planning on cutting carbs in April so will find out then. I just know as said earlier at the mo on a low carb diet I feel shaky and weak after deadlift. This as you say is prob down to the fact I am still using carbs as my energy source and have not reached this keto stage. i'm just a little sceptical about it thats all. Especially as your heart rate increases significantly during these heavy compound exercises which should mean your body can't simulate fat quick enough?

Strength will drop ever so slightly, but a lot of it is mental. Think you cna lift the weight and hammer it.
Don't think because dieting you should drop the poundages- use the same weights that got you the muscle in the first place and then you will minimise loss.

Just have a read on Dave Palumbo's keto diet and give it time to set in; only way to see if it works for you- nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

CHRISLA - you really need to do some research into your comments before you post
 
granted the ketosis diet has benefits - but your comment that 'you dont need carbs' - thats again just diabolical
 
complex carbs are essential, even when losing fat! you cant train as efficiently with deplted muscle glycogen stores....
 
they help keep your blood sugar levels constant, this reduces fat storage and fatigue and promotes the release of insulin, essential for muscle development. 
 
PWO you NEEEEEDDDD a source of quick carbs straight away, the insulin spike generated helps to push your body into an anabolic state.

in response to the OP you do want to lower your amount - i would stick to a meal of carbs upon waking, possibly a small amount pre training and carbs in ur PWO shake - the remainder of ur meals i wud incorporate proteins and EFAs

tap_out


CHRISLA - you really need to do some research into your comments before you post
 
granted the ketosis diet has benefits - but your comment that 'you dont need carbs' - thats again just diabolical
 
complex carbs are essential, even when losing fat! you cant train as efficiently with deplted muscle glycogen stores....
 
they help keep your blood sugar levels constant, this reduces fat storage and fatigue and promotes the release of insulin, essential for muscle development. 
 
PWO you NEEEEEDDDD a source of quick carbs straight away, the insulin spike generated helps to push your body into an anabolic state.

in response to the OP you do want to lower your amount - i would stick to a meal of carbs upon waking, possibly a small amount pre training and carbs in ur PWO shake - the remainder of ur meals i wud incorporate proteins and EFAs

 


This is pretty much what I'm doing; carbs in morning, pre-workout & post workout meal (i don't have a shake). The other 3 meals are protein & fats. I suppose Chrisla is saying the Ketosis diet your body swtches from using carbs as an energy source to using fats instead meaning you lose more fat and still manage lift heavy weights. I'm a bit sceptical about the heavy compound lifts especially Deadlift as my heart races high which normally means your body tries to use carbs as a fuel source as fat can't be burned quick enough that's why you have a fat burning zone in cardio. 

tap_out


CHRISLA - you really need to do some research into your comments before you post
 
granted the ketosis diet has benefits - but your comment that 'you dont need carbs' - thats again just diabolical
 
complex carbs are essential, even when losing fat! you cant train as efficiently with deplted muscle glycogen stores....
 
they help keep your blood sugar levels constant, this reduces fat storage and fatigue and promotes the release of insulin, essential for muscle development. 
 
PWO you NEEEEEDDDD a source of quick carbs straight away, the insulin spike generated helps to push your body into an anabolic state.

in response to the OP you do want to lower your amount - i would stick to a meal of carbs upon waking, possibly a small amount pre training and carbs in ur PWO shake - the remainder of ur meals i wud incorporate proteins and EFAs

Perhaps you are the one who needs to research first.

Try reading Dave Palumbo's diet thread. I assume you know who Palumbo is, owner of RX Muscle and has hundreds of clients, including in the past Toney Freeman (IFBB Pro)

Dennis Wolf, Freeman and countless other IFBB pros, not to mention normal bodybuilders have all used the Keto diet to great affect.

Take your head out of the sand and accept there is more than one way to diet.


When you have spent a good few hours reading around the subject please do feel free to come back.

 

Bluenose17

tap_out


CHRISLA - you really need to do some research into your comments before you post

granted the ketosis diet has benefits - but your comment that 'you dont need carbs' - thats again just diabolical

complex carbs are essential, even when losing fat! you cant train as efficiently with deplted muscle glycogen stores....

they help keep your blood sugar levels constant, this reduces fat storage and fatigue and promotes the release of insulin, essential for muscle development. 

PWO you NEEEEEDDDD a source of quick carbs straight away, the insulin spike generated helps to push your body into an anabolic state.

in response to the OP you do want to lower your amount - i would stick to a meal of carbs upon waking, possibly a small amount pre training and carbs in ur PWO shake - the remainder of ur meals i wud incorporate proteins and EFAs

 


This is pretty much what I'm doing; carbs in morning, pre-workout & post workout meal (i don't have a shake). The other 3 meals are protein & fats. I suppose Chrisla is saying the Ketosis diet your body swtches from using carbs as an energy source to using fats instead meaning you lose more fat and still manage lift heavy weights. I'm a bit sceptical about the heavy compound lifts especially Deadlift as my heart races high which normally means your body tries to use carbs as a fuel source as fat can't be burned quick enough that's why you have a fat burning zone in cardio. 

Well I haven't done deadlifts for a while, but I still manage my BB rows of 140kg and squats of 230kg on this diet, same as on my diet with 500g of carbs.

Granted, when cardio is up to 90minutes daily I will drop a little strength, but nothing major.

 

Chrisla



Perhaps you are the one who needs to research first.

Try reading Dave Palumbo's diet thread. I assume you know who Palumbo is, owner of RX Muscle and has hundreds of clients, including in the past Toney Freeman (IFBB Pro)

Dennis Wolf, Freeman and countless other IFBB pros, not to mention normal bodybuilders have all used the Keto diet to great affect.

Take your head out of the sand and accept there is more than one way to diet.

Perhaps you need to stop arguing like an idiot and provide proper citations. You just said "Why do you think carbs are essential? They aren't." I asked you to provide names of people who train year round without carbs (meaning they would need to build muscle too and gain strength without carbs and you haven't done so).

It is you who needs to get your head out of your a$$ and provide scientific evidence .

The OP asked about dieting down, so his aim is to retain lean tissue and lose fat.

Nowhere in this diet have I advocated a Keto approach for the offseason.

 

^Exactly. Nobody is advocating giving up carbs forever! I asked about cutting, Chrisla said 'carbs are not essential' so obviously reading his response in the context of the question I asked at the start of this thread, as well as harmoniously with the rest of his replies, it's quite clear that he means 'carbs are not essential when cutting'.

john93 - why so hostile? No need for that kind of language and tone it's completely uncalled for!

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

No doubt a 10stone pencil neck

 

Ok people, can we debate pleasently please?  On the net you will get people making silly claims, but we can debate politely!

James Collier
Like MuscleTalk.co.uk on Facebook

CitizenKane

john93 - why so hostile? No need for that kind of language and tone it's completely uncalled for!

That's a bit one-eyed of you isn't it? Who started by making an outrageous claim and then says take your head out of sand? Perhaps that is the kind of language and tone that is called for isn't it?

James


Ok people, can we debate pleasently please?  On the net you will get people making silly claims, but we can debate politely!

x2!

john93

CitizenKane

john93 - why so hostile? No need for that kind of language and tone it's completely uncalled for!

That's a bit one-eyed of you isn't it? Who started by making an outrageous claim and then says take your head out of sand? Perhaps that is the kind of language and tone that is called for isn't it?

Well in fairness, he said "take your head out of the sand" (which wasn't even directed at you!).

Whereas on the other hand, you said "take your head of your ass" and accused him of making "idiotic" comments. Two ways of saying the same thing, one polite, the other not so much!

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

The key is being prepared to learn new things in this game. If you are constrained by the accepted schools of thought and aren't prepared to challenge theories and try different things, how can you ever expect to get anywhere?

    

 

Chrisla


The key is being prepared to learn new things in this game. If you are constrained by the accepted schools of thought and aren't prepared to challenge theories and try different things, how can you ever expect to get anywhere?

There are other ways. There is stuff like body recomposition and carb-cycling but most people are singing "keto" like parrots. I haven't been around this forum for long but how many discussions on body recomposition or carb-cycling have you seen mate?

john93

Chrisla


The key is being prepared to learn new things in this game. If you are constrained by the accepted schools of thought and aren't prepared to challenge theories and try different things, how can you ever expect to get anywhere?

There are other ways. There is stuff like body recomposition and carb-cycling but most people are singing "keto" like parrots. I haven't been around this forum for long but how many discussions on body recomposition or carb-cycling have you seen mate?

Carb cycling works well, I agree with that.
More than one way to skin a cat. Keto is very easy to follow, I will be following it for 10weeks and then using a carb cycling plan for final 4weeks.

3 low days (100g carbs), 1 medium (200g), 2 lows and then a high (450g) and then repeat.

Do you prefer carb cycling then? Have you had bad experiences with Keto?

 

Chrisla

Carb cycling works well, I agree with that.
More than one way to skin a cat. Keto is very easy to follow, I will be following it for 10weeks and then using a carb cycling plan for final 4weeks.

3 low days (100g carbs), 1 medium (200g), 2 lows and then a high (450g) and then repeat.

Do you prefer carb cycling then? Have you had bad experiences with Keto?

Keto wouldn't work for me because of the practicalities involved. When I'm out, I can still "sneak in carbs" and they fit in with my goals.

tap_out


CHRISLA - you really need to do some research into your comments before you post
 
granted the ketosis diet has benefits - but your comment that 'you dont need carbs' - thats again just diabolical Carbs aren't essential, you don't need them, what is the issue with a statement of fact?
 
complex carbs are essential, even when losing fat! you cant train as efficiently with deplted muscle glycogen stores.... No they are not. They can be off assistance, but they are not essential
 
they help keep your blood sugar levels constant, this reduces fat storage and fatigue and promotes the release of insulin, essential for muscle development.  Easier to do this with less insulin i.e. no carbs
 
PWO you NEEEEEDDDD a source of quick carbs straight away, the insulin spike generated helps to push your body into an anabolic state. No it doesn't, the insulin is shown to be good at preventing catabolism, but not promoting anabolism, sufficient PWO protein is fine for growth

in response to the OP you do want to lower your amount - i would stick to a meal of carbs upon waking, possibly a small amount pre training and carbs in ur PWO shake - the remainder of ur meals i wud incorporate proteins and EFAs Agree with this, though upon waking is not needed IMO, around training should at least be a boost for glycogen stores

Timed carbs seems to be the best boat for many, though low/zero carb approach can definitely work for fat loss, particularly if re-feed based.

Personally would I attempt to gain on a zero carb diet? Yes - mainly to see what happens! I've also been gaining fine on my low carb approach so far.

With regards to glycogen reserves, I often wonder how much glycogen people think they can use up. You can store 1500-2000kcal+ of glycogen, if you are training for say 40 minutes, how many kcals of that do you think that you are actually going to use up...? Maybe a quarter?

This is where depletion followed by re-feeds makes so much sense IMO

Udos Choice | MWC Comp Journal

Lyle mcdonald UD2 diet

Tony Barnes

Timed carbs seems to be the best boat for many, though low/zero carb approach can definitely work for fat loss, particularly if re-feed based.

Personally would I attempt to gain on a zero carb diet? Yes - mainly to see what happens! I've also been gaining fine on my low carb approach so far.

With regards to glycogen reserves, I often wonder how much glycogen people think they can use up. You can store 1500-2000kcal+ of glycogen, if you are training for say 40 minutes, how many kcals of that do you think that you are actually going to use up...? Maybe a quarter?

This is where depletion followed by re-feeds makes so much sense IMO

Body recomp and carb-cycling are preferred by many to keto. If you read this stuff from people who know their sh1t, then you can get calculators and spreadsheets which go down to the minute details.

I don't have time for those microscopic details but just have high, medium and low carb days and slot in strength training and cardio. There is none of the refeed days of keto and seems to be working for me.

john93 - What exactly is body recomp? I am admittedly a total n00b when it comes to cutting so I'm looking for all the info I can get!

JOURNAL
 
I'm tougher than leather, I'm smoother than suede,
Always never broke 'cos I'm usually paid.

Ballbag AKA onefatidiot


Lyle mcdonald UD2 diet

The UD2 is not for everyone. From the book description :-

Please note: the UD2 is an advanced diet for advanced dieters and is only for those seeking very low levels of body fat.  A male should be at 12-15% body fat or lower and females at 21-24% body fat or lower prior to considering the UD2.  As well trainees must have at least 6 months of consistent training in the weight room under their belt before they even consider the UD2.