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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 15:21:25
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1MR
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quote:
If Serge Nubret spread his meals more evenly across the day would he have had a more successful bodybuilding career?
More successful? Unlikely, already top of his game.
A better physique? Definately, but the differences would be very little.
Besides, no discredit to Serge, but how do we know he really only ate twice?
On a similar yet different not, Sly Stallone's "diet" would have most of us on here up in arms if a newbie posted it as their own, but it clearly worked for him!
http://www.sylvesterstallone.com/exercisemain.html
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 15:52:31
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R3261
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quote:
A better physique? definetely,
why so sure?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:09:37
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makaveli1971 1996
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1MR
quote:
If Serge Nubret spread his meals more evenly across the day would he have had a more successful bodybuilding career?
A better physique? As above
Besides, no discredit to Serge, but how do we know he really only ate twice?
And i suppose we have to take his word for it.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:27:23
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1MR
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quote:
why so sure?
I was going to edit that to "probably" but I can't edit on my works comps! Very restricted access.
I believe that if Serge was at 98% of his genetic potential (for example) he might have acheived 99% if he'd applied a scientific approach to his diet rather than 2 big sittings. Though using Serge as an example, it goes to show that this 100% scientific and meticulous approach to dieting isn't needed.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:36:35
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ap
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1MR
Though using Serge as an example, it goes to show that this 100% scientific and meticulous approach to dieting isn't needed.
......when you have elite genetics on your side
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:36:45
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R3261
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quote:
I believe that if Serge was at 98% of his genetic potential (for example) he might have acheived 99% if he'd applied a scientific approach to his diet rather than 2 big sittings
not that diet matters as much when chemicals are introduced
anyway, all that hard work, preparation, worrying about catabolism for anet effect of 1 per cent?
i think most readers on this site can afford to be a bit more liberal then
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:45:09
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richsINS
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Always a nice slap in the face when "Basic bodybuilding rules" that we all bang on about are suddenly (or were always) higher disputed isnt it? 
Kind of makes you wonder if next week we'll all be doing 500 curls a day instead of compounds due to the latest studies 
Lyles responses are funny as hell, but always reluctant to take one "professionals" word as gospel. Berardi banged on about no carbs+fats and another professional disputes its, always makes you go hmmm when that happens.
What about the 1.5g per KG of lean body mass, is this debated also or considered 'fine' by all?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:48:11
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ap
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Paul Dillett. Claimed to only eat twice a day due to laziness. By all accounts, trained poorly too. Yet he has one of the most freakish physiques ever to grace the IFBB stage. Plently of people in gyms around the world eat every 2 hours, specifically and scientifically calculated macronutrients, complete proteins etc etc and train religiously and intensely. Yet they still look crap. Yet Paul Dillett is standing there looking like that with his haphazard approach. Why? His genetics. Pure and simple. How much better would he have looked if he ate a 'perfect' diet as opposed to his lacklustre one? Maybe good enough to win the Olympia instead of just top 5. But even with his poor approach, he still has a better physique than 99.999999% of the world.
The crux of the question being posed in this thread depends on what degrees we're talking here. Is the question, 'Timings overrated or underrated' as in, will they alone produce a world class physique? In which case, yes they are overrated if this is what we are assuming of them. But if we are asking merely whether they will they make some form of difference to performance and ultimately progress, then yes they will, so they are not overrated.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 16:58:27
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Eric Marks
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This is a great thread, however I don't think a final answer has really been hit. I do believe that "weight" itself will stay the same if calories are the same but would the amount of muscle/fat change? I can't tell. I think it probably wouldn't but I wish I knew for sure because 4 meals a day is a lot more convenient than 6-7
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 17:03:40
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R3261
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quote:
Lyles responses are funny as hell, but always reluctant to take one "professionals" word as gospel.
he is a very clever man. he has devoted his entire life on this one topic. if there's anyone whose word i would take for gospel, it would gladly be his
quote:
What about the 1.5g per KG of lean body mass, is this debated also or considered 'fine' by all
based on empirical data, it is good
lyles work, not conclusive :
... Research over the years has, oddly enough, suggested two different possibilities in terms of how the body responds to resistance training. Some research, based on nitrogen balance, suggests that resistance training does (at least transiently) increase the requirement for protein. Researchers like Peter Lemon and Mark Tarnopolsky have suggested protein requirements of 1.7-1.8 g/kg (roughly .8 g/lb) while Kevin Tipton recently made a good case for 1.2-1.5 g/lb (2.5-3 g/kg) for strength and power athletes. Other, more conservative researchers such as DJ Millward and Stuart Phillips argue for slightly lower requirements, on the order of 1.2 g/kg (~.6 g/lb still higher than the RDA).
However, another line of research suggests that opposite, that regular training actually increases the retention of protein by the body and that habitual training may end up decreasing protein requirements in the long term. One study, for example, has shown that resistance training improves nitrogen retention even during fasting presumably because the training stimulus causes the body to recycle/utilize more protein. A similar effect has been seen in other training studies.
< Message edited by R3261 -- Apr. 11 2008 17:06:24 >
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 17:06:05
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richsINS
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where are the "Timings are underated(therefore important)" getting there info from?
Arn't most studies saying they dont really matter much ?
Also there dont seem to be any conclusive ones on body composition yet, or ive missed them(Highly possible, trying to eat here ).
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 17:12:07
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: R3261
quote:
Lyles responses are funny as hell, but always reluctant to take one "professionals" word as gospel.
he is a very clever man. he has devoted his entire life on this one topic. if there's anyone whose word i would take for gospel, it would gladly be his
Yeah but hasn't berardi and his team also been pretty dedicated to diet/training etc and he preaches "carbs+fat as a no no"?
quote:
What about the 1.5g per KG of lean body mass, is this debated also or considered 'fine' by all
based on empirical data, it is good
lyles work, not conclusive :
... Research over the years has, oddly enough, suggested two different possibilities in terms of how the body responds to resistance training. Some research, based on nitrogen balance, suggests that resistance training does (at least transiently) increase the requirement for protein. Researchers like Peter Lemon and Mark Tarnopolsky have suggested protein requirements of 1.7-1.8 g/kg (roughly .8 g/lb) while Kevin Tipton recently made a good case for 1.2-1.5 g/lb (2.5-3 g/kg) for strength and power athletes. Other, more conservative researchers such as DJ Millward and Stuart Phillips argue for slightly lower requirements, on the order of 1.2 g/kg (~.6 g/lb still higher than the RDA).
However, another line of research suggests that opposite, that regular training actually increases the retention of protein by the body and that habitual training may end up decreasing protein requirements in the long term. One study, for example, has shown that resistance training improves nitrogen retention even during fasting presumably because the training stimulus causes the body to recycle/utilize more protein. A similar effect has been seen in other training studies.
Cheers for this, im assuming this is body weight and not lean body mass(would be stated if it was right?).
Using the pros as 'evidence' seems a bit weak, they can lie......Email them and ask they if they juice  
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 17:46:35
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H20
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Just a couple of things, sorry if this may seem OT Integra but I think it`s a valid and would appreciate the answers -
1/ I was under the impression eating bigger meal/meals (ie 1 - 2 a day) wasn`t a good idea in that it sends signals to the body and for want of a better phrase triggers off a kind of `starvation mode`effect ?
2/ in any case surely eating 1-2 massive meals a day as opposed to 6-8 small ones would stretch the stomach more ?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 18:02:31
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R3261
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quote:
Yeah but hasn't berardi and his team also been pretty dedicated to diet/training etc and he preaches "carbs+fat as a no no"?
lyle back's up his stuff with reason and science. do you have any idea how much research this guy does. as regard beradi i have no interest in what he writes. after realising how silly his p + c, p + f stuff was didn't he retract and say low GI carbs plus fat is ok now
quote:
Cheers for this, im assuming this is body weight and not lean body mass(would be stated if it was right?).
yea
quote:
1/ I was under the impression eating bigger meal/meals (ie 1 - 2 a day) wasn`t a good idea in that it sends signals to the body and for want of a better phrase triggers off a kind of `starvation mode`effectyou will not go catabolic. your meals are larger. they are taking longer to digest. ?
2/ in any case surely eating 1-2 massive meals a day as opposed to 6-8 small ones would stretch the stomach morewith time your hormones will get accustomed to the new meal frequency quote:
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 18:13:12
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H20
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Cheers R3261, I was thinking more of the `holding onto fat` thing rather than catabolism ?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 18:38:15
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BYF1
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I think timings are important, but meal timings and frequency are two different things.
Carbs and protein are more important before and after training (however you choose to do that), so as long I do that
I'm not fussed, and I don't get complicated over it.
I use to eat 7 times a day, I now only eat 4 times a day due to life/work commitments and I've seen no differences I can put down to diet, in fact I've been making very good progress.
What is making the difference is training hard and consistantly and having the correct intake/output required for my goals with sufficient macros and genarally eating healthy, not worrying about minor details and worrying about food all the time.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 19:55:02
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Nigeepoo
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Small hijack but it saves making another thread! Nige - you talk a lot about Lyle M's work on here now and I was just wondering if you've read any of his books (particularly the UD 2.0) and, if so, what you though of them? Cheers! I've read his Rapid Fat Loss Handbook 1 and thought that it was very thorough and well-researched. The more time I spend on his fora, the more impressed I am with his knowledge. He doesn't suffer fools gladly, though!
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 20:02:07
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Nigeepoo
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Nige: you mention how ones BMR would not DECREASE on the 2nd diet but would the more frequent feeds on the 1st diet not stimuate an increase? BMR goes up a bit at mealtimes & goes down again in-between meals. I think that a small number of large meals produces bigger fluctuations in BMR than a larger number of smaller meals but average BMR is the same.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 11 2008 20:10:18
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don marcos
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I think about it subjectively.
For me I enjoy eating small(ish) amounts every 2.5 - 3hrs as I like the physical process of eating and also the mental affect of having a food "production line" of protein, carbs, oils etc feeding my body.
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