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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 18:30:03
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
Nige,
OK the whole steak digestion thing i understand. What about taking bob who has fasted for 24hours, we give him 1000g(yes thousand  ) of whey isolate blended into plain water.
Now this digests fast, hits the blood stream fast(The important part of this question, people seem to be missing this with regaurds to the steak question) and now the body will surely not be able to use this suddenly huge influx of protein right? That's a tricky one as 1kg of whey protein isolate in one meal is not something that the human body has evolved to cope with. I'm not too sure what would happen to be honest. Try it and report back!
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 18:49:07
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richsINS
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Haha after you  ,
Ok but are there any studies regaurding the ammount of protein a body can/did utilise when given for lack of a better word "an over dose". Wheter it was digested or injected.
40g? 80g? 100g?
We know carbs get converted/stored eventually and fats too, but protein is different it cant be stored right?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 19:19:20
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buzzer
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Myth You can only assimilate 30 grams of protein at one sitting.
Fact: The body has the ability to digest and assimilate much more than 30 grams of protein from a single meal.
Speaking of high intakes of protein, people have been perpetuating the myth that you can only assimilate ~30 grams of protein at a time, making protein meals any greater than a 6 oz. chicken breast a waste. This is anything but true. For example, the digestibility of meat (i.e. beef, poultry, pork and fish) is about 97% efficient. If you eat 25 grams of beef, you will absorb into the blood stream 97% of the protein in that piece of meat. If, on the other hand, you eat a 10 oz steak containing about 60 grams of protein, you will again digest and absorb 97% of the protein. If you could only assimilate 30 grams of protein at a time, why would researchers be using in excess of 40 grams of protein to stimulate muscle growth?1
Critics of high protein intakes may try to point out that increased protein intake only leads to increased protein oxidation. This is true, nevertheless, some researchers speculate that this increase in protein oxidation following high protein intakes may initiate something they call the "anabolic drive".13 The anabolic drive is characterized by hyperaminoacidemia, an increase in both protein synthesis and breakdown with an overall positive nitrogen balance. In animals, there is a correspondent increase in anabolic hormones such as IGF-1 and GH. Though this response is difficult to identify in humans, an increase in lean tissue accretion does occur with exaggerated protein intakes.14,15
The take home message is that, if you are going to maximize muscle growth you have to minimize muscle loss, and maximize protein synthesis. Research clearly shows this is accomplished with heavy training, adequate calories, and very importantly high protein consumption. This means that meals containing more than 30 grams of protein will be the norm. Not to worry, all that protein will certainly be used effectively by the body.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 19:29:53
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richsINS
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Whats the source of that buzzer?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 20:05:16
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hardgainer1234
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
Haha after you ,
Ok but are there any studies regaurding the ammount of protein a body can/did utilise when given for lack of a better word "an over dose". Wheter it was digested or injected.
40g? 80g? 100g?
We know carbs get converted/stored eventually and fats too, but protein is different it cant be stored right?
the thing is though in a lot of people's minds assimilation of protein means muscle repair = growth whereas when protein is assimilated there's only part of it that is used for muscle repair and the rest will turn into glycogen and nitrogen (as Nige explained) but it's STILL assimilated.. but not just as muscle repair but as carbs ...
So as explained above eating 200gr or 1kg of steak would not change anything in terms of assimilation but I'd say having 90gr of whey in water compared to 30gr would mean that a lot more of the 90gr would be turned into carbs and nitrogen because it wouldn't take hours to digest a whey shake in water ...
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 20:15:41
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buzzer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
Whats the source of that buzzer?
based on 13,14,15,
References:
1. Tipton K., Ferrando A., Phillips S., Doyle, JR D., Wolfe R. Post exercise net protein synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am. J. Physiol. 276: E628-E634, 1999
2. Bennet, W. M., A. A. Connacher, C. M. Scrimgeour, and M. J. Rennie. The effect of amino-acid infusion on leg protein turnover assessed by L-[15N]phenylalanine and L-[1-13C]leucine exchange. Eur. J. Clin. Invest. 20: 37-46, 1989
3. Castellino, P., L. Luzi, D. C. Simonson, M. Haymond, and R. A. DeFronzo. Effect of insulin and plasma amino acid concentrations on leucine metabolism in man. J. Clin. Invest. 80: 1784-1793, 1987
4. Fryburg, D. A., L. A. Jahn, S. A. Hill, D. M. Oliveras, and E. J. Barrett. Insulin and insulin-like growth factor-I enhance human skeletal muscle protein anabolism during hyperaminoacidemia by different mechanisms. J. Clin. Invest. 96: 1722-1729, 1995
5. McNulty, P. H., L. H. Young, and E. J. Barrett. Response of rat heart and skeletal muscle protein in vivo to insulin and amino acid infusion. Am. J. Physiol. 264 (Endocrinol. Metab. 27): E958-E965, 1993
6. Mosoni, L., M. Houlier, P. P. Mirand, G. Bayle, and J. Grizard. Effect of amino acids alone or with insulin on muscle and liver protein synthesis in adult and old rats. Am. J. Physiol. 264 (Endocrinol. Metab. 27): E614-E620, 1993
7. Newman, E., M. J. Heslin, R. F. Wolf, P. T. W. Pisters, and M. F. Brennan. The effect of systemic hyperinsulinemia with concomitant infusion of amino acids on skeletal muscle protein turnover in the human forearm. Metabolism 43: 70-78, 1994
8. Watt, P. W., M. E. Corbett, and M. J. Rennie. Stimulation of protein synthesis in pig skeletal muscle by infusion of amino acids during constant insulin availability. Am. J. Physiol. 263 (Endocrinol. Metab. 26): E453-E460, 1992
9. Newsholme, A.E., Parry-Billings M. Properties of glutamine release from muscle and its importance for the immune system. JPEN. 14 (4) supplement S63-67
10. Oddoye EA., Margen S. Nitrogen balance studies in humans: long-term effect of high nitrogen intake on nitrogen accretion. J Nutr 109 (3): 363-77
11. Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson M-P, Maubois J-L, and Beaufrère B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion (amino acid turnover / postprandial protein anabolism / milk protein / stable isotopes) Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol. 94, pp. 14930-14935, December 1997
12. Sarwar G. The Protein Digestibility-Corrected Amino Acid Score method overestimates quality of proteins containing antinutritional factors and of poorly digestible proteins supplemented with limiting amino acids in rats. J. Nutr. 127: 758-764, 1997
13. Millward, D.J. Metabolic demands for amino acids and the human dietary requirement: Millward and Rivers (1988) revisited. J. Nutr. 128: 2563S-2576S, 1998
14. Fern EB, Bielinski RN, Schutz Y. Effects of exaggerated amino acid and protein supply in man. Experientia 1991 Feb 15;47(2):168-72
15. Dragan, GI., Vasiliu A., Georgescu E. Effect of increased supply of protein on elite weight-lifters. In:Milk Protein T.E. Galesloot and B.J. Tinbergen (Eds.). Wageningen The Netherlands: Pudoc, 1985, pp. 99-103
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 21:39:54
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richsINS
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Thanks buzz, and who was the author?
A new question...
So the whole idea of me eating 50g of rice 2hours before a workout is flawed, i should be carbing up in the morning in preparation for a 6pm training session as digestion will take a fair ammount of time? I should also avoid fatty foods when carbing up so digestion is speeded up? Something like rice + tuna. Would veg even be added, wont the fibre slow digestion?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 21:46:24
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hardgainer1234
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1MR
quote:
If Serge Nubret spread his meals more evenly across the day would he have had a more successful bodybuilding career?
More successful? Unlikely, already top of his game.
A better physique? Definately, but the differences would be very little.
Besides, no discredit to Serge, but how do we know he really only ate twice?
On a similar yet different not, Sly Stallone's "diet" would have most of us on here up in arms if a newbie posted it as their own, but it clearly worked for him!
http://www.sylvesterstallone.com/exercisemain.html
I seriously don't believe that. A friend of mine asked him if it was true he used to eat over 5000kcals in one or two meals, that that's what was written in magazines and he replied he didn't even remember saying that ! There's a french forum where he talks about his life, training methods etc and he says he used to train between 3-5 hours per day 7 days a week, he did 2000 sit ups etc... he also says he never took creatine as a supp as there was enough in the beef he was eating etc
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 17 2008 21:55:15
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hardgainer1234
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
Thanks buzz, and who was the author?
A new question...
So the whole idea of me eating 50g of rice 2hours before a workout is flawed, i should be carbing up in the morning in preparation for a 6pm training session as digestion will take a fair ammount of time? I should also avoid fatty foods when carbing up so digestion is speeded up? Something like rice + tuna. Would veg even be added, wont the fibre slow digestion?
well the carbs you'd be eating in the morning would be long gone by 6pm IMO (depending on your daily activities but still).
On another note, I'd wonder if having slow release carbs before a work out (1hour before) might not be as good as fast carbs as the fast acting carbs would probably bring more energy than slow acting carbs, even if it was over a shorter period of time... and since both type of carbs are equal, consuming slow carbs would provide steady energy during a LONGER period of time but without as much intensity/energy as the fast carbs would ... so maybe consuming slow carbs will not give you as much strenght/focus etc than fast carbs would..
We're all different though
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 1:02:10
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Eric Marks
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fast carbs cause an insulin spike which isn't good for performance for when you are training, this is why it is recommended to have slow carbs pre-workout
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 10:28:27
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
We know carbs get converted/stored eventually and fats too, but protein is different it cant be stored right? Although AAs aren't stored as such, long-chain proteins (as are found in meats, poultry, fish, eggs & casein) are stored in the stomach while they're being broken down into short-chain proteins.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 10:29:53
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hardgainer1234
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eric Marks
fast carbs cause an insulin spike which isn't good for performance for when you are training, this is why it is recommended to have slow carbs pre-workout
according to Nige and another poster on here, insulin spikes during work out MIGHT affect SOME trainers but not the vast majority ...
It's just that I can't see how slow carbs could be as consistant/effective as fast carbs since they provide less energy for the work out (drop-dipping into the muscle), even though it's for a longer period of time..
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 10:46:48
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hardgainer1234
It's just that I can't see how slow carbs could be as consistant/effective as fast carbs since they provide less energy for the work out (drop-dipping into the muscle), even though it's for a longer period of time.. Before you start a workout, you ensure that your muscles have enough muscle glycogen. When you workout, your muscles use stored glycogen as their energy source.
It's like slow-charging a battery. An appliance can draw a lot of current from a charged battery, far more than it can draw from a slow-charger.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 11:00:04
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iaink
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quote:
Now this digests fast, hits the blood stream fast (The important part of this question, people seem to be missing this with regaurds to the steak question) and now the body will surely not be able to use this suddenly huge influx of protein right?
I have not read much regarding this thread, however it does need to be mentioned (if it hasn't already) that no potein is absorbed 'fast' Whey may be absorbed 'faster' than other protein types but it is still somwhere in the region of 10g/hr. This also assumes the individual is in a fasted state and takes the whey on its own.
A normal meal may take 5-7 hours to digest. You will not be going into a 'catabolic state' during this time. Further there is little evidence to suggest increased meal frequency increases metabolic rate and there is some evidence (from studies infusing AA) that contiuned evelvation of blood AA's will blunt protein balance after an intial rise, i.e. some feedback mechanism exhists to limit continued elevation of protein balance by increasing oxidation of AA in the liver.
I believe there will be no difference, in terms of mass gain, between ingesting the same food (isokcalorific etc etc) over 3-4 meals than 5-6. However, particulary for large individuals with high kcal needs, it may be easier to ingest somewhat smaller meals throughout the day than gorging themselves on 3 massive meals. Similary, to loose weight it may be nice to eat more regulary to help feelings of hunger on a low kcal diet.
As for high protein diets, I'd always err on the side of 'more than enough' protein than 'not enough'. 2-5g/kg bw a day seems very reasonable and certanly not counter productive in healthy individuals.
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 11:41:33
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Integra
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How would the timings - apart from pre/post workout - affect an individual looking to lose bodyfat?
Would the rules (for want of a better word) change?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 12:06:05
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iaink
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That I am less confidant about Integra. I much have less direct experience and theoretical knowledge when it comes to reducing BF, at least a radicall reduction.
Again I still do not think it would be of vital importance. From a practical point of view it may seem good to eat more often when on a 'cut', however the down side of that is the meals become very small and less satisfying, but spreading out food may help to curb appetite and cravings? It amy purley down to persanal prefference and a plab an individual can stick too
The extent or serverity of the kcal reduction may also effect what is the optimum approach?
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 12:24:30
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drewsky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nigeepoo
quote:
ORIGINAL: hardgainer1234
It's just that I can't see how slow carbs could be as consistant/effective as fast carbs since they provide less energy for the work out (drop-dipping into the muscle), even though it's for a longer period of time.. Before you start a workout, you ensure that your muscles have enough muscle glycogen. When you workout, your muscles use stored glycogen as their energy source.
It's like slow-charging a battery. An appliance can draw a lot of current from a charged battery, far more than it can draw from a slow-charger.
But lets be clear about this:
You ensure that you get as much CHO into the muscle in the 'window' by having high GI carbs/II feeds peri workout. This is the crux of peri workout nutrition: the pre and during drink are not for that workout but rather for recovery and thus the training session after.
With weight training if you're reliant upon pre training feeds there is probably a problem in your post workout nutrition and overal diet game plan.
< Message edited by drewsky -- Apr. 18 2008 12:25:22 >
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 12:43:12
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hardgainer1234
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nigeepoo
quote:
ORIGINAL: hardgainer1234
It's just that I can't see how slow carbs could be as consistant/effective as fast carbs since they provide less energy for the work out (drop-dipping into the muscle), even though it's for a longer period of time.. Before you start a workout, you ensure that your muscles have enough muscle glycogen. When you workout, your muscles use stored glycogen as their energy source.
It's like slow-charging a battery. An appliance can draw a lot of current from a charged battery, far more than it can draw from a slow-charger.
ah.. so as long as glycogen stores are full or at least sufficient then doesn't matter whether they're full of fast or slow carbs, carb fuelling will be the same? I understand your point but it sounds a little confusing as fast carbs have a different role to slow ones for a reason and if it's not for providing energy to the muscle quicker then there's no advantage of having fast carbs in your blood... I might be getting the picture 
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 14:31:39
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buzzer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
Thanks buzz, and who was the author?
bryan haycock
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RE: Timings - Overrated or Underrated? - Apr. 18 2008 14:36:31
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Nigeepoo
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Using the battery analogy, fast carbs are like a fast charger and slow carbs are like a slow charger. Your muscles use the stored (carb) charge in their glycogen "batteries". Post-WO, you want a fast charge. Pre-WO, you don't.
If eating fast carbs gave you "energy", you'd go from lying exhausted on the floor to leaping around full of beans after swallowing 70g of glucose. Does glucose have that effect on you?
It certainly doesn't have that effect on me. The insulin spike I get after swallowing 70g of glucose sends me off to sleep (I know...I've had two Oral Glucose Tolerance Tests).
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