quote:

ORIGINAL: DW2000

Right, it's taken me an hour, but I reckon this provides my point with a good basis for argument. I also have several more journals supporting my point if needed (Influences of weight and frequency on thigh and lower-trunk motion during repetitive lifting amploying stoop and squat techniques - KP Hagen, O Sorhagen, K Harms-Ringdahl; Kinematic, kinetic and EMG patterns during downward squatting Valdeci Carlos Dionisio, Gil Lu´cio Almeida, Marcos Duarte,
Roge´rio Pessoto Hirata)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve902

quote:

ORIGINAL: ginasmg
its also unatural to add weight whilst doing these mvements,this makes it an unatural movement imo.

What if Mr Caveman has to pick up and move his disabled pet wolf which is steadily gaining weight every day?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DW2000

Right, it's taken me an hour, but I reckon this provides my point with a good basis for argument. I also have several more journals supporting my point if needed (Influences of weight and frequency on thigh and lower-trunk motion during repetitive lifting amploying stoop and squat techniques - KP Hagen, O Sorhagen, K Harms-Ringdahl; Kinematic, kinetic and EMG patterns during downward squatting Valdeci Carlos Dionisio, Gil Lu´cio Almeida, Marcos Duarte,
Roge´rio Pessoto Hirata)



Much has been written on how to lift, conditions in the work place that need to be corrected, and problems as they affect the lifter. The weight of the object to be lifted, the frequency and duration of lifting, and the level from which an object must be lifted are all matters of concern with respect to how the lifter is affected.

Because of the many variables involved in lifting, there cannot br a single correct way to lift. Some points however are widely agreed. Largely that lifting from floor height presents many hazards and is biomechanically unsound.

Opinions differ regarding whether to stoop or to squat and whether the low back should be straight or curved arteriorly (ie. In the direction of lordosis). Squatting involves knee bending; stooping involves bending forward from the hips or waist (or both) and slight kneed bending.

The squat position for lifting, however, places the quadriceps at a mechanical disadvantage and places it under sever strain.

If we look at a child for example, we see that they rest their hamstrings on their calves, with knee travel far over the toes. To return to upright from this position they effectively bounce against the hyperextended joint in order to gain momentum to rise. Many adults have knee problems that prohibit using the squat as a lifting technique, furthermore, lifting in this manner using a deep knee bend can exaggerate, exacerbate or even cause many knee problems.

In forward bending, many people exhibit excessive flexion in which the lumbar spine curves convexly in a posterior direction and assumes a position of lumbar kyphosis. This condition is very common. Although the low back muscles remain strong the posterior ligaments are stretched and the back is vulnerable to strain from lifting in this position.

Referring to Fahrni, Pope et al, stated that “as the lumbar lordosis increases, the plane of the L5 and the S1 disks becomes more vertical and subject to greater shear and cyclic torsional forces, while nonlordotic segments are subject to compressive forces” (26,27). Referring to the work of Farfan, Pope et al. also stated that “[B]ending and torsional forces are of particular interest, since the bulk of experimental findings suggest that these, and not the compressive loads, are the most damaging to the discs” (27,28).

Taken largely from the following sources, all credit duely given.

References:


Fahrni WH, Trueman GE. Comparative radiological studyof spines of a primitive population with North Americans and North Europeans. J Bone Joint Surg [Br] 1965;47-B:552

Pope M, Wilder D, Booth J. The biomechanics of low back pain. In: White AA, Gordon SL, eds. Symposium on Idiopathic Lower Back Pain. St. Louis, Missoouri: C.V. Mosby, 1982

Farfan HF. Mechanical disorders of the Low Back. Philadelphia: Lea & Febiger, 1973.


Kendall FP, McCreary EK, Provance PG, Rodgers MM, Romani WA. Muscles: Testing and function with posture and pain. Fifth edtion. Baltimore: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: stavross

Smith machines are for girls mate.

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ORIGINAL: DW2000

I agree that it would be fairly easy to argue this from both sides.

My belief is that for muscular size and strength benefits squats and deadlifts are unrivalled. I've been discussing this with my housemate at length (he's a biomedical engineer working in posture, physio and rehab) and my colleagues, and I also believe that for rehabilitation and strengthening weak areas they have their benefits. HOWEVER, I still don't feel that it is a natural movement, and should always be approoached carefully and with awareness that certain concessions need to be made for the movements to be good (or even just not bad) for the body.

My routine focuses heavily on squating and deadlifting, and will continue to do so, as for serious and knowledgable trainers they can be approached with due dilligence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stavross

Smith machines are for girls mate.

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ORIGINAL: Rosc0PColtrane
Personally speaking and not at all representative, my back has improved because of deads and squats. I get no lower back ache that I used to get.

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ORIGINAL: daKensta

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ORIGINAL: Rosc0PColtrane
Personally speaking and not at all representative, my back has improved because of deads and squats. I get no lower back ache that I used to get.

same here.
though whether it's a direct result of working my lower back muscles, or the increase in core stability that comes with heavy lifting in general, I couldn't say.....

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ORIGINAL: cliff_vtr

All exercise increases risk of injury, though lifting weights will put you out of training far less than lets say running. Running is much harder on the joints. Or what about rugby, I think I heard that the time spent out of training is like 4 or 5 times to that of weightlifting/powerlifting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosc0PColtrane


At best it's a hypothesis with some very generalist annecdotal evidence. 'Can exagerate' 'Many People' it's conjecture. It's not concise and lacks any practical research. ie out of 1,000 people surveyed who deadlift, squat etc, 743 experienced negative effects as described. That would be viable evidence. I'd hazard that these 'many people' had inherent issues to start with.

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ORIGINAL: Rosc0PColtrane
So, in essence: Do it right, it's fine, do it wrong and you'll feck yourself??

Kind of stating the obvious.

quote:

If squatting isn't a natural movement I don't know what is

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ORIGINAL: DW2000

Lets be honest, deadlifts probably are bad for you. And squats. Most heavy compounds in fact. They're not natural movements, good form or not. I struggle to think of any serious trainers without a niggle or long term injury. Physiologically the human body is not designed to deadlift, otherwise the spine wouldn't be positioned as it is and the length it is.

Does this mean I think he's right saying deadlifting will give everyone a bad back? no. Will I stop doing heavy deadlifts? Hell no

quote:

ORIGINAL: eddie182
I never have and never will do deadlifts. I just think in the long run it would do my back in.
However I always do squats, but tend to use dumbells in each hand and go right down to the floor. This way if I hit failiure then I can get up easily by just dropping the weights.