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Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:00:28
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ReRaise
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Hello all. I’ve been looking through the nutrition articles section and still can’t seem to find the answer to my question. So apologies if its in there and I’ve missed it.
Is there an actual requirement, generally speaking, for calories from fat, as is often seen as ratios of protein/carbs/fat.
As an example…somebody who is cutting and consumes 6 meals a day. Seeing as though carbs have 4cals/g as oppose to the 9cals/g of fat, it may be more satisfying to get nearly all cals from pro/carbs, with the EFA’s either being supplemented or consumed in one pro/fat meal.
So 5x protein/carb meals, with the 6th meal, before bed being protein/fat, with the fat coming from nuts and fish oil caps….does this look like it could be a credible cutting diet, if the calorie defecit is still being maintained.
I understand that what works for one person might not for another, and I by no means believe in eating by numbers….but just trying to understand the importance of calories from fat, as opposed to requirements of the essential acids from fat OR are these the same thing, in which case I’m well off the mark and I apologise.
p.s ..i did ask a question recently about cutting with carbs in every meal, but decided to start a new thread as this is more about the importance of fat, hope this is ok.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:18:02
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carl19
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if the deficit is there it will work
however EFA s are important
a low carb approach will suit a sedentary person whereas an approach like that above would suit a mannual worker
EAT to SUIT
Most of us burn more cals from fat and ketones naturally i believe
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stone14, I am going to refrain from posting in this thread until I can come up with a polite way of saying:
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:23:35
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theiopener
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We burn both carbs and fats at rest but in different ratios
This is generally why some people (like me) advise to eat a little fat with a lena protein source and some veggies. This provides what your body needs and it will also alleviate hunger as fats+leanprotein+fibrous veg are very filling
its also about total calories, you can indeed gain weight on a low carb approach
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:34:53
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Batman
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If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:37:01
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theiopener
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Batman
If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead.
if you burn predominately carbs at rest then fine, Gaz is a carb burner as hes been tested and he eats to suit his metabolic rate. Most people are fat burners and eating carbs from experience when they arent needed tends to lend itself to overeating as they arent as filling as lean proteins and fat
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:41:37
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Batman
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I see what you mean, is it just to avoid over eating that you should avoid carbs? Personally I don't feel full off fat/protein meals and need some carbs to get the full feeling. Could this mean that I burn more carbs at rest than some or does the hungry feeling not come into it?
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:41:57
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ReRaise
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quote:
If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead.
This is what I was wondering. If this is the case, would it then be possible to cut on protein/carbs, while getting essential fatty acids that the the body needs from mainly fish oil capsules? (with olive oil/or nuts for non O3's)
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:47:07
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ReRaise
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Sorry theiopener, you had answered by the time I posted.
Other than being tested, do you think its possible to know by feel, so to speak, weather you're predominantly a fat burner or carb burner at rest. For example, theiopener, you mention that lean protein/veggies/fat is very feeling....and I know many people who say the same...but for me, it's these meals that never seem to 'hit the spot. Always seem to leave me feeling like I NEED carbs and I'm often quite hungry shortly afterwards.
Just wondered if this is likely to be any indication as to weather or not I'm a predominant carb burner or not.
EDIT: sorry Batman, i must be too slow at typing, just noticed you posted pretty much the same thing.
< Message edited by ReRaise -- Apr. 20 2008 14:49:40 >
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:47:12
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theiopener
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Batman
I see what you mean, is it just to avoid over eating that you should avoid carbs? Personally I don't feel full off fat/protein meals and need some carbs to get the full feeling. Could this mean that I burn more carbs at rest than some or does the hungry feeling not come into it?
I never said omit carbs in meals, its just certain ratios. WHen people get tested for instance they may burn 85% fat and 15% carbs. So give your body what it needs in terms of calories
Also what kind of hunger do you feel, physical or mental hunger? Feeling full and being satisfied are also two different things as i have experienced what being full and being satisfied both are
quote:
This is what I was wondering. If this is the case, would it then be possible to cut on protein/carbs, while getting essential fatty acids that the the body needs from mainly fish oil capsules? (with olive oil/or nuts for non O3's)
You can indeed but with a high carb count you may not get super lean unless your output matches the input of your carb intake. Or unless youre a carb burner to begin with
Most sedentary people will not be able to cut on high carb high protein
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:47:15
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Batman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReRaise
quote:
If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead.
This is what I was wondering. If this is the case, would it then be possible to cut on protein/carbs, while getting essential fatty acids that the the body needs from mainly fish oil capsules? (with olive oil/or nuts for non O3's)
If "a calorie is a calorie" it would be. IME dropping carbs gives very good results, very quickly, BUT makes me weak and feel grumpy. The quick results come, I think, from loss of water which rapidly returns once carbs are added back.
I like to keep carbs there if I could get the same fat loss, especially since my training suffers loads of I don't have them.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:48:06
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theiopener
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReRaise
Sorry theiopener, you had answered by the time I posted.
Other than being tested, do you think its possible to know by feel, so to speak, weather you're predominantly a fat burner or carb burner at rest. For example, theiopener, you mention that lean protein/veggies/fat is very feeling....and I know many people who say the same...but for me, it's these meals that never seem to 'hit the spot. Always seem to leave me feeling like I NEED carbs and I'm often quite hungry shortly afterwards.
Just wondered if this is likely to be any indication as to weather or not I'm a predominant carb burner or not.
Eat a few starchy carbs with meals, they need to be low to cut but not omitted entirely. Also when you state you feel hungry, physically or mentally?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Batman
quote:
ORIGINAL: ReRaise
quote:
If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead.
This is what I was wondering. If this is the case, would it then be possible to cut on protein/carbs, while getting essential fatty acids that the the body needs from mainly fish oil capsules? (with olive oil/or nuts for non O3's)
If "a calorie is a calorie" it would be. IME dropping carbs gives very good results, very quickly, BUT makes me weak and feel grumpy. The quick results come, I think, from loss of water which rapidly returns once carbs are added back.
I like to keep carbs there if I could get the same fat loss, especially since my training suffers loads of I don't have them.
Eat carbs around training then and taper them off around the day, no need to go super low carb. 200g a day around brekkie and training is fine for most people to get decently lean coupled with a few cardio sessions. Not many people need to drop carbs super low to begin with, all thats needed is a minor adjustment here or there
< Message edited by theiopener -- Apr. 20 2008 14:49:51 >
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:52:35
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ReRaise
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quote:
Also when you state you feel hungry, physically or mentally?
I think some of it is probably mentally, I keep telling myslef, its just in my head...but really, its physically...based on the feeling in the stomach I guess. And I'm always getting.."you can't possibly still be hungry after all that" off the gf.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 14:54:17
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Batman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ReRaise
Sorry theiopener, you had answered by the time I posted.
Other than being tested, do you think its possible to know by feel, so to speak, weather you're predominantly a fat burner or carb burner at rest. For example, theiopener, you mention that lean protein/veggies/fat is very feeling....and I know many people who say the same...but for me, it's these meals that never seem to 'hit the spot. Always seem to leave me feeling like I NEED carbs and I'm often quite hungry shortly afterwards.
Just wondered if this is likely to be any indication as to weather or not I'm a predominant carb burner or not.
This is exactly how I feel when eating carbless meals.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
quote:
ORIGINAL: Batman
I see what you mean, is it just to avoid over eating that you should avoid carbs? Personally I don't feel full off fat/protein meals and need some carbs to get the full feeling. Could this mean that I burn more carbs at rest than some or does the hungry feeling not come into it?
I never said omit carbs in meals, its just certain ratios. WHen people get tested for instance they may burn 85% fat and 15% carbs. So give your body what it needs in terms of calories
What if you had eaten no fat and had eaten carbs, would the body not use them instead?
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
Also what kind of hunger do you feel, physical or mental hunger? Feeling full and being satisfied are also two different things as i have experienced what being full and being satisfied both are
I'm always mentally hungry and can eat stuff, but I don't feel full inside on just fat/protein. So I think it's physical hunger.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
quote:
This is what I was wondering. If this is the case, would it then be possible to cut on protein/carbs, while getting essential fatty acids that the the body needs from mainly fish oil capsules? (with olive oil/or nuts for non O3's)
You can indeed but with a high carb count you may not get super lean unless your output matches the input of your carb intake. Or unless youre a carb burner to begin with
Most sedentary people will not be able to cut on high carb high protein
Why not? If you eat low fat, surely the carbs you eat will get used for energy instead, even if you burn 85% fat at rest. Even if it's in an indirect way by burning 85% of energy from body fat, then 85% of the carbs you've injested not being used and possibly being converted to body fat and burned by the body when sedentary.
Would that not happen?
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 15:05:47
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theiopener
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quote:
What if you had eaten no fat and had eaten carbs, would the body not use them instead?
You cant not eat any fat, its something your body needs to survive and function
quote:
I'm always mentally hungry and can eat stuff, but I don't feel full inside on just fat/protein. So I think it's physical hunger.
No i think thats mental hunger playing tricks on you
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Why not? If you eat low fat, surely the carbs you eat will get used for energy instead, even if you burn 85% fat at rest. Even if it's in an indirect way by burning 85% of energy from body fat, then 85% of the carbs you've injested not being used and possibly being converted to body fat and burned by the body when sedentary.
Would that not happen?
insulin predominately i would imagine, if you have higher insulin levels then fat burning will be impaired. Its also very easy to overeat on carbs vs fats and protein. If you can keep your calories in check then you may notice it you may not. only one way to find out though
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 15:06:21
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ReRaise
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quote:
Eat carbs around training then and taper them off around the day,
This is what I did on my last cut, and i was happy with results. But, as I train in the morning, last cut was Fasted Steady State AM cardio followed by pro/carb breakfast - Train - Then Pro/Carbs PPWO - Pro/Carbs again - then Pro/Fat for the rest of my meals. And for the rest of the day I would crave carbs. It wasn't easy, but it got results, and if I have to take that approach again I will.
But if the reults can be achieved without the mental and physical struggle of low - very low carb for most of the day, then it would be much better.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 15:28:09
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Batman
If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead. When you are sedentary, you burn about 1kcal/minute. If carbohydrate intake exceeds what your body burns, un-burned carbohydrate is stored as glycogen.
As glycogen stores fill up, carbohydrate burning increases and fat burning decreases in an attempt to burn more carbohydrate. At 100% carbohydrate burning, 1kcal/min = 0.25g of carb/min = 15g/hour = 360g/day.
If carbohydrate intake still exceeds what your body burns, glycogen stores become full and carbohydrate is then converted into triglycerides.
High serum triglycerides are bad news for your lipid profile, making your cholesterol more artery-clogging.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 15:44:02
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Batman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
quote:
What if you had eaten no fat and had eaten carbs, would the body not use them instead?
You cant not eat any fat, its something your body needs to survive and function
I don't mean no fat overall, I mean for a period of the day when I want to eat carbs. I would get fat at other times such as before bed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
quote:
I'm always mentally hungry and can eat stuff, but I don't feel full inside on just fat/protein. So I think it's physical hunger.
No i think thats mental hunger playing tricks on you
No I can tell the difference, when I have carbs I feel as though I have energy, when I don't and stick to just fat/protein I feel drained and weak.
quote:
quote:
Why not? If you eat low fat, surely the carbs you eat will get used for energy instead, even if you burn 85% fat at rest. Even if it's in an indirect way by burning 85% of energy from body fat, then 85% of the carbs you've injested not being used and possibly being converted to body fat and burned by the body when sedentary.
Would that not happen?
insulin predominately i would imagine, if you have higher insulin levels then fat burning will be impaired. Its also very easy to overeat on carbs vs fats and protein. If you can keep your calories in check then you may notice it you may not. only one way to find out though
Exactly, if you lay out your diet and know the amount of calories you are to consume then you won't overeat and so where's the harm if you feel better? Also when trying to lose fat I don't think the glycogen stores in my muscles would never be full due to training output and the actual amount I would be consuming. I think I read muscle and liver glycogen stores can contain around 470g of carbs but I would never be eating more than that amount.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nigeepoo
quote:
ORIGINAL: Batman
If you ate carbs instead of fat and were sedentary, what would happen then? Surely they would get used for fuel instead. When you are sedentary, you burn about 1kcal/minute. If carbohydrate intake exceeds what your body burns, un-burned carbohydrate is stored as glycogen.
As glycogen stores fill up, carbohydrate burning increases and fat burning decreases in an attempt to burn more carbohydrate. At 100% carbohydrate burning, 1kcal/min = 0.25g of carb/min = 15g/hour = 360g/day.
If carbohydrate intake still exceeds what your body burns, glycogen stores become full and carbohydrate is then converted into triglycerides.
High serum triglycerides are bad news for your lipid profile, making your cholesterol more artery-clogging.
So if I eat carbs then more carbs will end up being burned? As I said above do you think it would be an ok way to lose fat (eating carbs instead of so much fat) as long as those stores were never filled and "overflowed"?
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 16:41:02
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R3261
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quote:
So if I eat carbs then more carbs will end up being burned? As I said above do you think it would be an ok way to lose fat (eating carbs instead of so much fat) as long as those stores were never filled and "overflowed"?
carb based = less fat burnt but less stored
fat based = more fat burnt but more stored
end job. same difference
although some people do do better on low carbs, than high.
at this stage it doesn't really matter
whatever is most sustainable
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 17:05:52
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richsINS
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Basically, try both and go with what suits you best.
Calories will determine your fat loss, not carb or fat intake ratios - Your body will burn them both, just 'some bodys' will feel better matching their intake to their needs(See trainsmart test, or the origin test to find out what your needs are - If you got cash for it). Just keep in mind, you body does need the ESSENTIAL fatty acids (Fats).
So a carb burner on low carb might feel crap, but a fat burner on low carb/high fat may feel great or they may not notice a difference.
I think the test is about £50, pretty good if your serious IMO.
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RE: Calories from fat 'required'? - Apr. 20 2008 17:44:00
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
So a carb burner on low carb might feel crap, Probably. Hypoglycaemia is fairly obvious. but a fat burner on low carb/high fat may feel great or they may not notice a difference. Correct. Fat burners on high carb/low fat either feel O.K. as they can't feel hyperglycaemia or hypertriglyceridaemia, or they may feel drowsy as I do.
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