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Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 1:09:04
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richsINS
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So lately i've been having huge cravings, hunger isnt as satisfied as it was previously on my diet (Been dieting for around 24days now, seriously since the 7th).
Was 174lbs, now 165.5 or so and plan to keep going untill muscle loss becomes a real issue.
Anyhow diet intake on average is coming in at 1900Kcals 220carbs, 175 pro, 50g fats(1/1/1 poly/mono/sats) and omega 3 is 120g mackeral/flax 20g rotated daily and 2fish oil caps daily rigid.
Activity levels are 3x a week training (push/pull/legs) and 3x cardio 45minutes steady state after breakfast.
Im wondering if a carb refeed of between 220-450g carbs spread over 5hours or 1day period (as per lyles recommendations in a few of his books ) would benifit me. I seem to be experiencing 100% food obession, no sex drive(well lowered 10fold), leptin levels i assume will be lowered and generally psycholigically feel i need a cheat me.
So, carb refeed...or just a cheat meal?
Just want your opinions(specially if youve used carb refeeds before - ANy tips on foods, what foods worked and didnt? what foods satisfied you best personally etc?).
Tommorow ends with a workout, so seems a great day for it.
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 12:11:27
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Nigeepoo
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A high-carb refeed (keeping fats low) seems to be beneficial in terms of resetting the levels of various hormones. Doing it on weights day is a good idea. You will get a glycogen+water weight gain but that soon goes away when you go back to a lower carb intake. As a cheat meal probably contains loads of fats as well as carbs, this is not such a good idea. I've never done this so I can't recommend any suitable foods, but Lyle's support site should give you a few ideas.
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 14:27:14
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richsINS
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Thanks nige, yeah i've been reading his books (UD2 and the PSMF) and about things like NYP nueropeptide Y (or something like that) being related to food obsession and hunger and lowered sex drives(atleast in rats, but theres theory and my own personal experience seems to match this, not to mention slowed weight loss and other things).
However wondered if as my carb intake isn't that low(but calories are) wheter my leptin levels and other hormones would be that lowered. I suppose since leptin is effected by fat loss over calories determine need for a refeed not carbs?
On a second point, lyle mentioned avoid sucrose(due to fructose) - Whats "bad" about fructose, is it just based on it going straight into the liver (via the whatever thingy ma bob  ) meaning liver fills up and can overspill and lead to fat storaget? As opposed to glucose which would go to the muscles, then liver, THEN overspill (And overspill isnt something we want to much of on a refeed i believe)?
Thanks
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 15:12:17
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Nigeepoo
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Losing weight by any means messes with your hormones.
The purpose of the carb refeed is to fill muscle glycogen stores, so glucose & starches are best for that job. Glucose & starches also fill liver glycogen stores so adding a shed-load of fructose is not a good idea as that only fills liver glycogen stores (via GLU-T2 transporters and fructokinase thingy ma bob).
Over-filling liver glycogen overspills as serum triglycerides which is bad news for your LDL-cholesterol.
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 15:30:08
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richsINS
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Ah thanks for clearing up the thingy my bob
Sadly it seems skinny cow icecream has a fair bit of fructose syrup which would make it not ideal for refeeds 
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 16:39:19
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R3261
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quote:
So, carb refeed...or just a cheat meal
based on what you've told me i doubt whether a refeed will offer any physiological beneftits
mentally it's up to you to decide whether you need them or not
a little bit of fructose is fine BTW
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 16:52:48
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: R3261
quote:
So, carb refeed...or just a cheat meal
based on what you've told me i doubt whether a refeed will offer any physiological beneftits
mentally it's up to you to decide whether you need them or not
a little bit of fructose is fine BTW
What do you base this on R32?
Thanks
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 17:02:02
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R3261
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acute carb refeeds (5 hours- 1 day) won't do squat in jacking up hormones
you're eatining in excess of 200 in the first place
your 'refeed' tops at a max of ~ 400
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 17:27:52
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richsINS
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Is the "1 day wont do jack" pretty concluesive/backed up in human studies yet? I read lyle talk about a rat study and how it helped their metabolism, but no human study yet.
Wont a carb refeed increase calories also though, and restore glycogen stores/up leptin and other hormones and benifit me?
What would you personally do then, just a cheat meal for psychological reasons. Or go for a 2day refeed?
Currently trying to 'stick it out' for aslong as i can before a cheat meal, but when i do have one i want it to me optimal and enjoyable 
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 17:30:43
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Ak_88
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How much would a carb refeed consist of roughly?
I've been on <200g a day for the last 2 weeks or so and feel like i've hit a wall, so tommorow i'm planning to up my intake a bit but obviously don't want to overspill.
Edit - Hit a wall in terms of feeling quite fatigued and overtrained.
< Message edited by Ak_88 -- Apr. 25 2008 17:32:20 >
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 17:41:11
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R3261
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quote:
Is the "1 day wont do jack" pretty concluesive/backed up in human studies yet? I read lyle talk about a rat study and how it helped their metabolism, but no human study yet. something about there being a lag time of a few days between initial calorie restriction and a fall in metabolic rate. i expect the same would apply in reverse
Wont a carb refeed increase calories also though, and restore glycogen stores/up leptin and other hormones and benifit me? look at it as time you could be spending losing fat instead
What would you personally do then, just a cheat meal for psychological reasons. Or go for a 2day refeed?
Currently trying to 'stick it out' for aslong as i can before a cheat meal, but when i do have one i want it to me optimal and enjoyablemy diet is never strict. nor is it ever that low in carbs. so i never really cheat. every 2 weeks or so i have a free day where i bump up my cals. no harm done, and helps in the long run
quote:
How much would a carb refeed consist of roughly? in a day? how much you can get away with depends on how depleted you are
I've been on <200g a day for the last 2 weeks or so and feel like i've hit a wallwhat do you mean? weight loss stalled? , so tommorow i'm planning to up my intake a bit but obviously don't want to overspillas long as you're in a deficit you're still be burning fat. if you eat a little too much, it doesn't matter as long as you get back on track as soon as
quote:
Edit - Hit a wall in terms of feeling quite fatigued and overtrained.
what's your weight doing?
if it's more than just a little tiredness then you might want to bump up your kcals to start with. 40-50g carbs to start with
< Message edited by R3261 -- Apr. 25 2008 17:46:00 >
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 17:44:00
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Ak_88
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Not stalled but today i've felt pretty tired all day and my training session was pretty poor by comparison to recent ones.
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 25 2008 17:46:44
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R3261
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quote:
Not stalled but today i've felt pretty tired all day and my training session was pretty poor by comparison to recent ones.
put it down to a bad day
if it persists then as above
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 27 2008 13:59:24
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richsINS
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Hmmm no weight loss this week and i've been doing the maximum cardio i've ever done. (clear proof that cardio makes you fat  )
3x session 45mins, 3x training and no weight loss eating ~1800-~1900kcal a day. Very odd, 1800 feels like starvation!
BF reading tommorow, taken caliper measurements. What i wanted to know is, .5lb/week is max muscle gain a week but does this exclude "beginner gains" since past 3 weeks ive been training legs for first time ever(due to knee injury). Wondered if this could be covering up any muscle loss....wishfull thinking perhaps.
Still very odd ive not dropped anything this week. 
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 27 2008 14:21:32
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theiopener
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do more sscv sessions and eat more
how tall are you as well
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 27 2008 16:09:30
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R3261
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do not make adjustments after 1 bad reading
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RE: Carb refeed or cheat meal - Opinions please - Apr. 27 2008 20:50:02
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richsINS
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R3261 - I've taken 4 readings, differing surfaces over the past few days so the chance of it being slight differences in water/digested food/other seems pretty low. Not going to change anything yet, i agree it will just complicate things if weight loss did occur randomly.
Going to do a BF test tommorow and weigh myself again, weight loss has been declining lately though (Past 2-3weeks) and diet remains as strict as it was.
TIO - 6ft 2, yeah if nothings changed by wednesday i think ill need to up the cardio.
Upping food intake will just cancel that out though as i doubt a slightly larger increase in food intake will boost my metabolism by anything significant so increasing calories seems strange.
However my GF and i do think im perhaps slightly leaner, but this could definately be wishfull thinking so skeptical about that.
Surely beginner gains in my legs couldn't of cancelled the weight loss effect?
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