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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 13:31:32
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FrankenJim
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I Argee with MP on this one, I buy
Whey
Creatine Mono
Oats ( Allthough may try the asda chepo version )
Dex
Malto
Caffine
EPA/DHA oils
Reason? Price. Price does dictate my spend, But i feel the quailty is Very high for the price. The Serivce has been tip top (Only 1 hicup was a 1 week wait during there internal re shift )
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 13:32:02
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paulom
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interesting had no idea of it
so in terms of qualaty the same brand no brand
?????
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 13:34:20
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Mobster
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To be clear - bulk sellers name their products so are a brand. We rarely sell other companies branded products. Quality will be the same (indeed we are under the same laws etc as 'brands').
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 14:44:03
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ThaiFighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FrankenJim
I Argee with MP on this one, I buy
Whey
Creatine Mono
Oats ( Allthough may try the asda chepo version )
Dex
Malto
Caffine
EPA/DHA oils
Reason? Price. Price does dictate my spend, But i feel the quailty is Very high for the price. The Serivce has been tip top (Only 1 hicup was a 1 week wait during there internal re shift )
The Asda one is nice...a bit powdery if you know what I mean? Lots of dust.
The shopping list there is for pretty basic products - which most bulk suppliers can replicate. The advantages available to branded sups, is that since they produce in large quantities, they can produce generally more innovative products. Mass FX for example, could only ever have been produced by someone going through PubMed studies, finding a manufacturer, and running off a batch of several thousand units - at considerable unit cost. Same with No-Xplode when it first came out, and even creatine mono when it was first *really* commercially launched by EAS in the early 90's (before which time, creatine was taken from cows...and would have been too expensive to produce to use as a supplement). Branded suppliers will take a risk on a product, and it either takes off (e.g. bsn no-xplode, eas creatine, ax mass fx etc.) and changes the face of the supplement market, or doesn't (e.g. muscletech leukic).
Basically I think there's merits to both branches of the supplement world, but I definitely think it's a false argument to assume bulk providers are always cheaper (it'll depend what you're after, and now many internet providers sell multi-deals as massively low prices), and it's also worth remembering that being a being a brand isn't limited to suppliers who say they're "branded" - any time you create an image in the mind of the buyer, and try to encourage trust and a reputation amongst your consumers, then you become a brand.
Mobster - your post was a history lesson to me :) cheers!
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 14:56:30
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all_in1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mobster
quote:
ORIGINAL: ThaiFighter
quote:
ORIGINAL: myprotein.co.uk
Hi,
This is an interesting question. We don't feel its as simple as "brand" vs "bulk". We feel we are both! We are an "online brand"... For anyone not sure on who we are please take a look at the link below:
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/?page=about-us
The reason we can offer better prices is the fact we produce all of our orders "in-house" and then sell to you "direct" cutting out the middlemen, which of course is in affect selling trade prices to the end users, rather than selling via retail (who have to make a profit as well)!
Of course we do all the above under strict ISO9001 (UKAS) guidelines which is the highest level of accredation for ANY company in the sector (retail or online), which assures our quality.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ThaiFighter
Here's an example of how little price difference is often in very similar products - bulk to "branded":
MP Pulse - 1kg / 1month with flavouring and in a plastic tub - plus UK shipping = 30.06
BSN No-Xplode - 820g / 1 month Grape Flavour - plus UK shipping = 29.97
BSN Cellmass - 640g / 1 month Orange Flavour - plus UK shipping = 29.97
Doesn't this show you get 18% more with Pulse, which is of course a great saving? Also if you bought in "bulk" (2kg+) then the saving would be greater as P&P isn't included in the product price. Of course if you spend over £100 P&P is "free".
That is of course one product. Compare our price for Creatine Monohydrate and a "retail" version for example.
With regards to whey we sell 5lb's of flavoured whey for £21.99 which comes in at 78% (as-is) protein, you can't buy that high quality, great tasting whey from any "retail" or "high street" (unless a special offer maybe?) and we have recently reduced our "MP Max - Whey Protein" product which gets rave reviews to £24.99 per 5lb tub.
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/mp-max/whey-protein/whey-protein-(5lb)/
Any questions please feel free to ask.
MP :)
I'm not saying you don't do a great product - I think you're a good company, and started the generic supplement market in the UK as it is today.
However, there are still middle men in your business model. You don't raise and farm the cattle who produce your milk for whey. You don't own the trucks that transport your powder. You don't own the dairy's that process your whey. You buy an end product, and sell it on, much like if Reflex sold their own products through their website - that would be a similar business model, if they were to aggressively do it.
In terms of value - gross volume doesn't equal value, length of cycle and results = value. My analysis was for 1 months supply of two competiting creatine products, which in my mind makes it a valid analysis.
As I said before, I think you produce great products and give good service - however I don't think there's that much difference in cost, especially now that the internet retailers have greatly reduced the cost of "branded" supplements.
I take issue only with that line in bold. A brief history of the 'bulk' brands needs to include Vydex's 10lb catering packs, Nutrisports 5-kilo tubs, the now defunct www.tmof.co.uk and Aviform never mind ourselves. I think as a brand we precede Myprotein by at least a year if not 2. The others precede Myprotein by three or so and maybe more. There are others which came along shortly after (the now defunct wpc80.co.uk, Bulkwhey, all in one, Bulkpowders, Proteindirect.co.uk and others). The specifics of each business model show unique aspects to all of them and so it is hard to do a direct comparison. Myproteins truly unique model, certainly in the UK, is their custom formulation service. Even that aspect of their business, it could be argued, was preceded by True Protein and the now no longer in that form Protein Customizer - both based as I said in the US.
Like I say, it's not as clear cut as it might seem because we all have differences but if it's bulk whey being sold in decent amounts for low prices Vydex gets the heads up as first.
Mobster,
You have some very valid points there.
ALL-iN1 sold its first product in 2000 long before the likes of Myprotein existed, remember the big box of 56 MRP sachets??
I'd agreee that TMOF were certainly first to sell whey direct.
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 15:10:23
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Mobster
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All-in-one: What's worse is you reminded me before - I'd forgotten again.
More history (although I stand ready to be corrected) TMOF fell after 2 things. Dave P Kelly ('Guv') found another more worthwhile (read better profit) venture (property) which coughed him up a massive lump of cash. At the same time, as per his site, he'd had a blinding deal on shipping (esp to the UK) fall when the two companies he used went tits up probably as a result of being so cheap. WPC80's Simon came into the game quiet late and had, as did another company I'll look at in a mo), such a slim margin that I suspect their profit was minimal. They were not able to sell the volume needed to support that and so, when the price rises hit the industry late 2006 early 2007 found themselves struggling. In addition it was a second income string for Simon (as it was/was for Bulk Whey).
Vydex and Nutrisport have made as much money, if not more, from their turnover of contract manufactured goods (making items with their own label for other companies and brands) as they did and do under their own brand name (Atlas is another Nutrisport 'brand).
< Message edited by Mobster -- Apr. 30 2008 15:11:00 >
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 15:16:47
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Mobster
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I've just been looking at another bulk sellers site. I'm not mentioning them by name but they have been advertisers here with good feedback and see they are 'out of stock' of WPC 80. On paper the best price but nowt to sell. It could easily be the same issue that WPC80 suffered from.
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 15:17:06
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all_in1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
Ben why doesnt all-in-1 do things like that again, i.e. serious bulk purchases like 60 MRP sachets
What about this protein blend that was rumoured ages ago too?
We've got a whole load of new products coming soon. Can't say much more than that, but I can tell you that what's coming will be something worth waiting for! And it'll put us a LONG way ahead of our competition without any sacrifice in terms of quality or our blinding service! 
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 16:02:14
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Mobster
Posts: 8246
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ThaiFighter
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mobster
All-in-one: What's worse is you reminded me before - I'd forgotten again.
More history (although I stand ready to be corrected) TMOF fell after 2 things. Dave P Kelly ('Guv') found another more worthwhile (read better profit) venture (property) which coughed him up a massive lump of cash. At the same time, as per his site, he'd had a blinding deal on shipping (esp to the UK) fall when the two companies he used went tits up probably as a result of being so cheap. WPC80's Simon came into the game quiet late and had, as did another company I'll look at in a mo), such a slim margin that I suspect their profit was minimal. They were not able to sell the volume needed to support that and so, when the price rises hit the industry late 2006 early 2007 found themselves struggling. In addition it was a second income string for Simon (as it was/was for Bulk Whey).
Vydex and Nutrisport have made as much money, if not more, from their turnover of contract manufactured goods (making items with their own label for other companies and brands) as they did and do under their own brand name (Atlas is another Nutrisport 'brand).
I heard Nutrisport were the biggest *volume* producers of protein powder in the UK because of all the contract stuff - is that still true?
Dunno for sure but a few years back Scott at NS claimed (in a chat) they were doing 200 tonnes a year. I'd like some of the pie please. 
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 16:10:05
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Mobster
Posts: 8246
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From: Gloucester United Kingdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: paulom
the things that I am learning never though it would go in this direction.
You think that for brands it is easier to keep the same standard in all its products since they have a name to keep and have more resources to keep always the same standard and bulk ones can in some circunstancies get away if the quality by any chance is not that good.
I am assuming that the quality of the whey for example will vary from producer to producer anf mantaining always the same quality is complicated since brands buy from several places and then mix it can overcome such situation.
If I am wrong feel free to explain
hope this doens't understaood in the wrong way. 
The law is the same for all of us. Quite a bit of the 'brands' are done under contracted out work. Without going into the ins and outs the volume mixed and sold by a supps company is nothing to a food manufacturer. For example one of my first jobs was at a meat processing plant and we were a small company. I started on the loading bays taking the meat off the trucks and worked out my team of 5 in all each lifted 1300 tonnes a man per year. If we could be compared to a contract company (cos we made sausages for Sainsbury's and Tescos) then Walls would have pissed on our fire. The powders warehouse we had on site was bigger than pretty much any supps company warehouse I've seen so far. And like I said we were small fish.
There are several companies you've never heard of that make products for some very well-known companies. Cambridge Foods, as an example, used to make Biohazard's Ravager product (until the late Paul Borreson neglected to pay their bill). Indeed I'd hazard a guess that the majority of 'brands' do not actually make their own product. I think a few do including Reflex. Some pack their own and label it but do not blend, mix etc. The investment required is, to be frank, **** loads.
An issue mentioned the other day and one which has caused problems for a few well known US based brands in the past is having formulas changed. Now a contract manufacturer can be naughty but it is more likely that a formula is changed by a brand but old labels used 'by accident'. Maximuscle got fined a few years back for mis-labelled samples (a matter of record) and others have claimed similar problems.
In fact I've argued that the margins on brands, unless brought from the parent company, are slimmer due to the resellers margins etc. Yet at the same time their buying power is much greater than pretty much any bulk seller. Their volume of slow margin resold product, combined with a decent percentage of directly brought product helps them to do well.
'Bulk' has a name to keep, esp if the name wants to become a long term one. The issue, if you like, is one of perception. Myprotein have addressed this earlier today and make a point of saying what they do, their ISO rating and so on. We, as another example, get ALL of our material packed off site (we're not set up to do otherwise) by a company that has been in the supps trade for 25 years and worked with Weider and other well-known companies. The problem is 'if it's a bulk company there must be corners being cut'.
There is: all of us use big ass tubs so have cut the small ones (908g being a industry fave), do not advertize in every magazine known to mankind, nor use big names when we sponsor and support events and athletes and so on. That saves a fortune. Then add in 95% of our sales are direct rather than via resellers (we have a couple) which helps the margins to remain the same for all sales and so on.
I had a long chat with the owner of Prolab UK re the selling chain. He wanted to talk to me after a comment of mine back when I ran Muscle Mob magazine. I'd asked why anyone would pay through the nose for a 300g tub of Creatine. It was about 2x as much as anyone else's. He pointed out it was a German sourced product, shipped to the USA to Prolabs HQ then shipped to his UK based company. Then, as now, Prolab UK is sold in shops and via reselling websites. So a margin for the agents, reps, shops and resellers needed to be included. His company and Maximuscle only really made a decent profit if you rang them directly and then offered deals not found in the shops (3 for the price of 2 and so on). Bulk sellers like Myprotein, ourselves and others have much smaller 'chain's' to work down. We still have to source the same material as do 'brands' but have removed, as it were, several links.
< Message edited by Mobster -- Apr. 30 2008 16:28:37 >
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 16:22:48
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paulom
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thanks
I am not surprissed with that in other products happens the same
but isn't that element of producing its products not in house that gives them the possibility to even out for example whey buy buying from different sources
a pwer that maybe bulk buyers will not have cos of its dimention
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 16:29:53
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Mobster
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No. As above we do not handle product at all in house including producing samples. The choc/caramel is a fave though so if you have to buy go for that one.
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 16:35:31
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Mobster
Posts: 8246
Joined: Apr. 20 2002
From: Gloucester United Kingdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: paulom
thanks
I am not surprissed with that in other products happens the same
but isn't that element of producing its products not in house that gives them the possibility to even out for example whey buy buying from different sources
a pwer that maybe bulk buyers will not have cos of its dimention
See above. Less if produced 'in house' than you'd think. Ditto blending of whey's. That assumes stock is held back to be saved for later to blend. Doesn't happen in that way.
What might and does happen and a major advantage of the money being a brand comes with is they can but shed loads of a tested whey. I buy a 1000-kilos at a time. They would contract for 20 tonnes. I get a CoA, they send samples off for testing. The company we buy most of our unflavoured WPC 80 from sells 20 tonnes a week to one meat company. That's 1000+ a year. NO supps company in the UK comes even close.
What also happens more often than I'd like is the contract company adds a lot of low grade material (cellulose, collagen, gums, etc) and other ingredients to improve mouth feel texture and taste. These additions are not always to the good. We've spoken to contract companies in the past re getting flavoured whey's made and without mentioning a name they were all too willing to go the whole hog. It would have been up to us what went on the label. You'd have liked its creaminess, its sweet taste and it's texture but it would have been ****e nutritionally speaking.
< Message edited by Mobster -- Apr. 30 2008 16:41:16 >
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 16:45:14
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paulom
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thanks man
I had no idea about that
I though it was done in another way.
So for example in the UK if bulk suppliers buy stuff not in house and i am assuming that there is not millions of producers out there will the products end up being almost the same
I am trying to establis a comparison with the cosmetics industry where people have no idea that the same guy produces to the brand that sells in the high street and for the brand that sells at Harrods for example but it is 10 times more expensive cos of paying for space uniforms the so called free gifts etc
but the product is the same sometimes only the parfum changes
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RE: Internet bulk suppliers or brands - Apr. 30 2008 17:26:24
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Mobster
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There ARE differences but they aren't so different as to elicit end results which also differ. www.t-nation.com have an old articles section and I've directed more than a few to look at 'protein wars'. In it this listed the numbers of WPC and WPI making companies (processing plants).
As batches of milk is processed from season to season there will be some variation. Now if you have serious buying power (say a baby milk making company) then you can say just how you want something processed. You might want, in the case of whey, it to be done using the CFM (tm) process rather than Ion Exchange. You might ask for some fractions to remain intact and so on. You can, to do this, either buy so much that you more or less take all of a processing companies WPC production OR pay for the extra quality you want.
Either way you'd be sure to promote this quality in your product and so be able to demand a higher retail end price.
Looking at bulk sellers we see two kinds of WPC are sold normally. Either NZ (New Zealand) or EU (UK, French, Dutch or a few other very small processors). NZ is well known as being of a certain quality, taste and texture and like most sources uses several large dairies working together which are then batched up and sent overseas (with China's influence now being felt).
Let's take that material and look at it here. In our flavoured product we do very little to it. Color, sweetener and flavoring are added. That's a very simple way of doing it and is reflected in the cost. Others will, as I said, adding thickening agents (I mentioned gums) and more. Even with the simple approach there are many variations on flavors and colors to choose from. the big ones: choc, vanilla, etc would be cheap but you can have toffee apple (SiS did this) and more. These will not sell as well and so cost more on a kilo for kilo basis. Even chocolate can be chocolate flavoring or cocoa powder and chocolate.
Yet regardless of the levels mentioned so far there is nothing, from unflavored WPC 80 (NZ) to a cocoa and choc flavoured WPC 80 (NZ) that is different enough to mean your gains will be better, your recovery greater and so on.
For that you need to look at what we might call a formulaic product or better still a blend. You need, if there is any worth in it, to look at adding some small amounts of chosen aminos to improve the ratios (also done to improve a low grade product), at WPI and WPC blends (ditto using a WPI and a creamy but low grade WPC 60 or worse). Going further we might look at egg, soy, milk, caesin and WPC/WPI blends with the addition or the pre and probiotics.
Even at that level, obviously with the addition of the extra manufacturing costs, how much 'better' is the product? It might be creamier and taste more 'McDonald's' like and hopefully have all of the above extra goodies included but in terms of your actual bigger gains... questionable. I've suggested a 5-10% (generous me thinks) increase for what will typically be 2-3x as much. So a 10% at best for a 300% greater cost...
Using lipstick and makeup as you mentioned earlier - spending more money doesn't make a girl more pretty and more kissable. You've never asked one 'is that Max Factor you're wearing' as a line (at least I hope not ha ha). Nor would you care if you were snogging one. Does spending more money make you a better bodybuilder?
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