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Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 17:28:52
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ziggy
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Hi all,
I'm trying to change my routine slightly so that i dont train biceps on the same day as i train the back. I find that once i've finished back exercises my biceps have become so weak that i cant really lift anything for the bicep exercises.
I am using cashman's routine and i know that he suggested that i do back first, which will also train the biceps. The extra biceps exercises at the end are to kill the biceps off. Here is the routine for the back/biceps day.
Deadlifts 4 sets 6-8 reps (last set to failure)
Bent Over One Arm Dumbell Rows 4 sets 6-8 reps
Chins or Lat pulldowns 3 sets 6-8 reps (last set to fail)
(I would prefer you to do chins instead though if you are strong enough to lift your bodyweight)
Barbell Bicep curl 3 sets 6-8 reps
One arm Dumbell Hammer curls 3 sets 6-8 reps
My question really is am i likely to see better gains if i combine back with biceps or should i train biceps on a different day (e.g. with shoulders) so that i can lift more weight during the biceps exercises. At the moment once i've finished lifiting for back, my biceps are dead and can only lift very light weights for biceps.
I have tried doing biceps first but this is worse because i cant then do any of the back exercises as my arms become weak. Should i do biceps another day or is this routine better as im training the biceps twice? (Once during back exercises and once during biceps exercises on the same workout day)
< Message edited by ziggy -- May 5 2008 17:41:42 >
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 17:43:36
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fun meter
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Personally, I'd stick with the routine. By doing Biceps / Triceps after compound work which involves them, you wont be able to lift as much. But weight doesnt equal size, its about progressive overload to gain size. So as long as your progression through the weights (will probably be a bit slower, as its your last exercises), you will gain size.
Some people prefer training Biceps after back (like me), others dont. In the long run, you'll find what works for you.
Although, I can understand what your saying. As 6 sets of biceps is a fair bit after training back. I do 3 exercises for back, then finish off with just 2x10 EZ curls, probably wouldnt be able to do much more than that, but still gaining size. 
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 17:54:20
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Raskolnikov
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You don't have to train biceps with back - many don't
There's several different ways of approaching it. Some folks combine chest and biceps in the same session; others have a special arms day where biceps and triceps are focused on; alternatively, training them with shoulders is another option
Can't really say what would be best. Training them with back has always worked for me, but different strokes for different folks
It's entirely up to you, just try different things and see what works
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 19:01:44
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ziggy
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Thank you guys. I will try it out and see how it goes. I might also try and change which muscle i do first everyweek. I might start with biceps in one week and then start with back the next week. We'll see how it goes.
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 19:56:20
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fun meter
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Always start with back, its a larger and more important muscle group then biceps.
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 20:34:55
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MuscleQuest
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i would drop DB rows to be honest, you've got nothing that properly hits your upper back, replace with BB rows. This if you want a proper back, if you just want lats keep doing what your doing.
I don't train biceps much now, somedays I'll do some arm work but besides that my efforts are better served elsewhere
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 22:27:17
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ziggy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fun meter
Always start with back, its a larger and more important muscle group then biceps.
Yes i dont disagree with this but wont this neglect the biceps as you wont have the required strength to train the biceps? This presumabley should be a reason to train the biceps on another day.
< Message edited by ziggy -- May 5 2008 22:50:13 >
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 22:28:01
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ziggy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MuscleQuest
i would drop DB rows to be honest, you've got nothing that properly hits your upper back, replace with BB rows. This if you want a proper back, if you just want lats keep doing what your doing.
I don't train biceps much now, somedays I'll do some arm work but besides that my efforts are better served elsewhere
Do barbel rows train upper and lower back?
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 5 2008 23:38:51
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MuscleQuest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ziggy
quote:
ORIGINAL: MuscleQuest
i would drop DB rows to be honest, you've got nothing that properly hits your upper back, replace with BB rows. This if you want a proper back, if you just want lats keep doing what your doing.
I don't train biceps much now, somedays I'll do some arm work but besides that my efforts are better served elsewhere
Do barbel rows train upper and lower back?
they hit the middle back, traps/rhomboid area, they also hit the lower back but generally if your forms bang on its mainly upper back, lower back works as a stabaliser
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 6 2008 1:31:08
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Mashburn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ziggy
quote:
ORIGINAL: fun meter
Always start with back, its a larger and more important muscle group then biceps.
Yes i dont disagree with this but wont this neglect the biceps as you wont have the required strength to train the biceps? This presumabley should be a reason to train the biceps on another day.
If you train bi's before back then your bi's will be tired, meaning you probably wont be able to lift as much on your back exercises.
You could always train bi's & tri's on their own day.
But tbh i would just leave it as is. Each to their own though.
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 6 2008 15:23:41
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fun meter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ziggy
quote:
ORIGINAL: fun meter
Always start with back, its a larger and more important muscle group then biceps.
Yes i dont disagree with this but wont this neglect the biceps as you wont have the required strength to train the biceps? This presumabley should be a reason to train the biceps on another day.
I understand your point, but see the below quote from my other post. Also the fact that when you train back, you use biceps. So you get a better back, and biceps will progress too. Where as the other way round, it doesnt work.
quote:
But weight doesnt equal size, its about progressive overload to gain size. So as long as your progression through the weights (will probably be a bit slower, as its your last exercises), you will gain size.
< Message edited by fun meter -- May 6 2008 15:24:14 >
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 6 2008 15:28:58
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MMA Guy
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i train biceps after chest and triceps after shoulders...
chest/bi's
legs
abs/cardio
shoulders/tri's
back/forearms
off
off
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RE: Training Back with Biceps or Shoulder with Biceps. - May 6 2008 16:35:55
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Mad Manic
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I'd train them away from back and also train triceps away from chest. You'll get better gains this way I'm sure of it.
MM
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