RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake?

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theiopener -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 18:38:01)
David with respect mate you bring information to the debate and when i question you you back off suggesting its payable as its in your books, i find this a little infuriating mate. i do not like people spewing dogma then backing off when i ask them to simplify it for the majority of people on here who really shouldnt be paying that much attention to things that are "optimal" when in real life they will make naff all difference but on paper they look good If you do not want to answer my question directly and simplify it i will question your presence on this board if its simply to sell you book and not help other people learn and progress. quote: ORIGINAL: David Barr We're starting to tread on the information I cover in the books so I'd like to avoid any kind of detail here. Your questions are valid, it's just that I spent so damn long writing them. lol As for the pre-workout problems, they're easily avoided. I've never had anyone follow my instructions and have issues with blood sugar, nausea, or sluggishness. For example: Start off with a half drink the first time, and no not train legs on this day. quote: ORIGINAL: theiopener 1. What is optimal, please quantify it in terms of real world results and differences 2. you will never be in a fasted protein state unless your intake is seriously low to begin with and your output is very high 3. why would you want to use fast carbs and protein pre-wo, this will cause a crash in the majority of trainers and make them sluggish and performance in the gym willsuffer

David Barr -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 18:39:05)
I was going to write my first article about Beta-alanine, but now I'm thinking about an update on this PWO-myths piece. It may help to clarify some of the questions and offer a nice lead-in to The Anabolic Index.

theiopener -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 18:39:45)
also an an aside recommending pop tarts for fast carbs, not the best idea considering its loaded with damaged and transfats [:D] can i also ask if you have paid to advertise your book on here, as i would like to do the same [:)]

richsINS -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 19:34:45)
Shows us your book tio [;)] Recipes or diet related?

theiopener -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 19:37:32)
it is a recipe book but James asked me not to advertise it on here. But considering David is doing something similar to what i got a slap on the wrist for i find it a little annoying to say the least, hence why im curious as to if hes paid to advertise, if he has/hasnt ill be doing the same [:)]

FatboyGinger -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 21:55:38)
I disagree with some of the PWO myths aswell What I don't understand is why you advocate leaving it half an hour before giving yourself protein+ carbs, then say that whey is slow digesting. What about taking whey directly after a workout, assuming it takes 30 minutes to digest? Wouldn't this be much easier that using pre digested whey? And off topic but I strongly disagree with your views on Nitric Oxide. Was this anything to do with the fact you are/were working for a company offering nitric oxide alternatives?

dazc -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 22:45:52)
im lost now, it seems people know something of some of the people posting here! so to clarify, who thinks pwo shakes are a good thing, and who thinks they are a waste of time, and state what you think should be in a shake as well! pre work out, i have 30g whey, 40g powdered oats and 30g dextrose, 15 minutes before i train, i dont get the tired feeling halfway through a workout i used to get before i was given this protocol

danchubbz -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 23:06:54)
quote: ORIGINAL: dazc im lost now, it seems people know something of some of the people posting here! so to clarify, who thinks pwo shakes are a good thing, and who thinks they are a waste of time, and state what you think should be in a shake as well! pre work out, i have 30g whey, 40g powdered oats and 30g dextrose, 15 minutes before i train, i dont get the tired feeling halfway through a workout i used to get before i was given this protocol IMO pre workout meal very important to maintain intensity and get the best from your session, at the end of the day that's the only way your gonna progress On PWO shakes again IMO I believe them to be beneficial to contain carbs and protein, I mean it's the total number of cals u consume in the day that determines if u put weight on or vice versa so keep a track of that. And I think targeting a lot of your carbs/cals around your training just makes good sense as that's when your body needs them the most.

theiopener -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 23:11:49)
quote: so to clarify, who thinks pwo shakes are a good thing, and who thinks they are a waste of time, and state what you think should be in a shake as well! For me they are a waste of time because i can get in the calories in easily anyway They are a good thing for people (like yourself Daz) who are sugar burners and who have very high calorie requirements and do benefit from their usage When i used to have a PWO shake it used to be 40g whey+5g leucine+5g creapure+50g dextrose, ive changed it to high carb, no carb and even dropped it, i feel better for not having it and i think it has an effect of my overall bodyfat loss by me not spiking my insulin

Lucky_jim -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 23:13:40)
quote: ORIGINAL: theiopener 3. why would you want to use fast carbs and protein pre-wo, this will cause a crash in the majority of trainers and make them sluggish and performance in the gym willsuffer this has never happened to me and i do use a pre and during protocol (but i guess you need to tak my whole diet into account) - in fact i feel better for using it

richsINS -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 23:18:15)
I had 60g dext + 30g whey. Used to have just whey, but dext is cheap and read numerous articles saying carbs we're good in 2:1 ratio with carb:pro so i went with it. Its cheap, not that many calories but certainly interesting to see if its such a big deal after all. I already figured food is in my stomch slowing whey digestion and providing amminos and all that, however wheter its placebo or not carbs in PWO seems to give me energy faster/fatigue declines faster than without. Now my cuts getting tougher, i may drop the carbs depending upon outcome of this debate. id still keep the whey, it boosts my daily intake.

James -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 23:31:42)
quote: ORIGINAL: theiopener David with respect mate you bring information to the debate and when i question you you back off suggesting its payable as its in your books, i find this a little infuriating mate. i do not like people spewing dogma then backing off when i ask them to simplify it for the majority of people on here who really shouldnt be paying that much attention to things that are "optimal" when in real life they will make naff all difference but on paper they look good If you do not want to answer my question directly and simplify it i will question your presence on this board if its simply to sell you book and not help other people learn and progress. Eddie - you are not a moderator, if you have issues, please raise them with one of the mods (best me) off the board - do not, please raise them with the member in public. We're lucky to have David on MT mate, maybe you're not familiar with his work. He is here for two reasons: 1) To promote his articles and book 2) To contribute to MT and pass on his information within the brotherhood of iron Both have been passed through me, and I am sure ALL members welcome point (2). David is posting within our guidelines too. Do I really need to email every high posting member about every business decision I make, ** even the other mods don't know everything I do about running MT; double *, even Jason doesn't. quote:* can i also ask if you have paid to advertise your book on here, as i would like to do the same No you can't bloody ask him. You do not pry on other people's businesses! And no you can't even ask me! Now I knew you were writing an ebook, but I didn't know it was finished. As I thought we'd said before, when yours is done we can discuss ways of promotion here. I'm actually embarrassed that you've taken this tone with David - it's only that this post was reported to be my another mod that I have looked in! David - I apologise for the bad atmosphere here, as you'll be aware this does happen on all forums - we try to stamp it out, but I guess when knowldgeable people come on, others are scpetical. Human nature....

James -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 8 2008 23:33:19)
quote: ORIGINAL: David Barr I was going to write my first article about Beta-alanine, but now I'm thinking about an update on this PWO-myths piece. It may help to clarify some of the questions and offer a nice lead-in to The Anabolic Index. We have an article on beta-alanine already, but another is welcome! - plus member IainK is an expert on this supplement - worth picking his brains too.[:)]

David Barr -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 4:01:58)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatboyGinger What I don't understand is why you advocate leaving it half an hour before giving yourself protein+ carbs, then say that whey is slow digesting. What about taking whey directly after a workout, assuming it takes 30 minutes to digest? Wouldn't this be much easier that using pre digested whey? I like your point, but let's be clear: whey is not slow digesting (I don't think this was ever stated). One can certainly use an intermediate speed protein like whey isolate or concentrate immediately after a workout, and very likely avoid protein resistance, but 1) the growth and recovery response is not likely to be as strong 2) It reduces the likelihood that a second protein pulse is going to be effective. That said, your idea is very low maintenance and far more practical for most people. Again, I'm dealing with optimization, which is neither necessary nor for everyone.

David Barr -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 4:31:50)
Fatboy there are a lot of misunderstandings in your post so let me clarify a little more. 1) It's important to understand that I have never worked for any supplement company. It always bothers me that people make such 'accusations' without first checking the facts. I would have been happy to write this review for any other web site (or supplement company!), but I think you can understand the conflict of interest they would have had. 2) It's critical to understand that my articles were not meant to be opinion pieces. They are reviews of the scientific literature. As always this is not to be taken as dogma, but it means that any disagreement of the literature should be countered with subsequent evidence. 3) The articles were not about nitric oxide, they were about arginine and blood flow. In spite of their common use on forums, nitric oxide and arginine are not synonymous (as was overwhelmingly demonstrated in the articles). 4) I always encourage questioning and open discussion, but so far have seen no cogent argument against the evidence presented. Most of the inane rantings people throw at me have already been dismantled in the body of the text. Hope that helps! edit: syntax quote: ORIGINAL: FatboyGinger And off topic but I strongly disagree with your views on Nitric Oxide. Was this anything to do with the fact you are/were working for a company offering nitric oxide alternatives?

David Barr -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 4:48:33)
James I appreciate you chiming in. Like everyone here, I post because I like the commonality we share, as it's rare to find others with our interest. We all enjoy helping people and have a lot to offer. It just seems greedy to have someone directly answer several of your questions and but then turn around and publicly insult them when they decline to continue. That said, I also have a lot of paying clients and it's unfair to them if I dole out all of my proprietary information to others for free. Onward and upward.

aldo -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 9:11:31)
To be fair to Eddie, you were the one that linked to your article, off course their will be people who think differently and may question some parts of it, but if you are not going to debate it, then whats the point? I've enjoyed reading the thread as its an interesting subject, but you cant just link to some info, and then say if you want it in more detail buy my book! thats just rude TBH

theiopener -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 9:27:50)
edit never mind Aldo, im low carbing lol, totally misunderstood [:D] You pretty much summed up my feelings on it tbh, many thanks [:)]

iaink -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 10:54:08)
quote: so to clarify, who thinks pwo shakes are a good thing, and who thinks they are a waste of time, and state what you think should be in a shake as well! I think they are decent practice, but not nessecsary as long as you have ingested suffcient kcals and macronutriuents throughout the day. Eating a meal a few hours before and after training will more than do the job, without the need for a specific PWO shake. However I often use a shake after training as it's normally time for me to eat then and it's eaiser for me to take in kcals in liquid form after training as my appetite is often surpressed for several hours after a major training session. If I am trying to gain weight this shake will be a normal MRP; whey, oats, fruit, oil drink i.e. just a liquid meal and not 'specfic' POW shake.

dazc -> RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? (May 9 2008 11:26:04)
quote: ORIGINAL: theiopener When i used to have a PWO shake it used to be 40g whey+5g leucine+5g creapure+50g dextrose, ive changed it to high carb, no carb and even dropped it, i feel better for not having it and i think it has an effect of my overall bodyfat loss by me not spiking my insulin purely speculation on my part, maybe it is better for fatloss not to have a pwo shake of anykind, then the body continues burning fat for energy post workout even though your activity has stopped (which is good for you), whereas having a shake immediately would make sure the body used food digested in the stomach and not any other source of energy (which is good for me)

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