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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 11:31:00
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Nigeepoo
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Everybody is different and does different things, so each person needs to do what works best for them, rather than what works best for someone else.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 12:19:34
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theiopener
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazc
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
When i used to have a PWO shake it used to be 40g whey+5g leucine+5g creapure+50g dextrose, ive changed it to high carb, no carb and even dropped it, i feel better for not having it and i think it has an effect of my overall bodyfat loss by me not spiking my insulin
purely speculation on my part, maybe it is better for fatloss not to have a pwo shake of anykind, then the body continues burning fat for energy post workout even though your activity has stopped (which is good for you), whereas having a shake immediately would make sure the body used food digested in the stomach and not any other source of energy (which is good for me)
Ok so turn that on its head and then ask if its good for fatloss would it be good for keeping leaner while bulking due to the above? Bearing in mind you will still be in a caloric surplus, you will just bump up the cals in your solid meal an hour or so after to replace the lost cals in your PWO shake
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 12:30:04
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dazc
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maybe it would, but then id be worried that it would be less than optimal for growth, id sort of feel like im missing a golden window, but maybe thats because thats how pwo nutrition has always been viewed
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 13:05:18
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iaink
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quote:
ahhh you see here lies the rub, what is optimal? This i find from experience is what messes with peoples heads in reality optimal could simply be a 0.1% difference but because it sounds good and looks good on paper it sometimes makes peoples minds change to a more self doubting pedantic nature
That makes sense! The problem with much of the knowledge pertaining to PWO/PRE/PERI nutrition is so much is extrapolated from studies whose methodology makes it hard to do so.
Firstly good practice in these studies is to use subbjects that are fasted ie. last food was dinnner time the day before and the testing starts in the morning (possible a very smalll meal may be provided) and may well finish close to midday if training is used etc etc. It should be quite clear that this is not normal practice for a strength athlete or bodybuilders!
Secondly the meausure of protein synthesis, degredation and ulitimatly protein balance may varey from study to study and unless you have intimate knowledge of the techniques used it is hard to critically review a paper with any conviction, or compare studies. Further other differences in methdologies such as protein sources, amounts ingested, differences in training treatments and subject groups will effect comparsion.
Thirdly it is hard to extrapolate any actute inceases in protein balance post training to any long term accumilation of muscle tissue, and to accuratly quantify the real difference in different feeding strategies.
Finally, and I have mentioned it in some way in the above, people use the reasearch to back up practice who cannot critically review the papers in question, making it easy to come up with false assumptions.
As you can see making definitive recomendations regarding nutrition around training based on the research is a potential minefield, even for experts in the field (not me!!). Add to that our own bias and myths we take as fact, and it makes it very hard to have confidance anything we do is optimal!
As individual we muct use a variety of sources to impliment the best nutritional strategies for our goals. We must assume that we will not always be 100% optimal in what we implement and must make our own exploration of what produces results in ourselves and others.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 15:53:56
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danchubbz
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It was more like egg whites and milk so I'm told, so:
egg whites = one of the quickest digesting proteins
and
milk = sugary carb
Basically "old school" whey and dex!!
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 16:08:41
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danchubbz
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milk is slow carbs?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 18:23:48
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazc
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
but yet fat is frowned upon when it comes to the modern day PWO window, see my point? 
not by me! for years my pwo shake was made with a pint of full fat milk and 4 scoops of promass  god i miss that, whey with dext and malto is soooo not tasty
Add sugar free strawberry chrusha, assuming you use 50/50% malt/dext the taste is amazingly nice.
I could drink it all day, although my teeth would probably rot away by the end of the week 
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8th May: 5.8lbs to go(i blame the cheat meal) .....Still cutting....
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 9 2008 19:30:07
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danchubbz
milk is slow carbs? Yup. Lactose (a disaccharride of galactose & glucose) is broken down into galactose (which tops-up liver glycogen) & glucose quite slowly (or not at all in LI people) so it has a low GI. The high II of milk is due to the whey content.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 10 2008 8:17:03
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popeye_wannabe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nigeepoo
quote:
ORIGINAL: danchubbz
milk is slow carbs? Yup. Lactose (a disaccharride of galactose & glucose) is broken down into galactose (which tops-up liver glycogen) & glucose quite slowly (or not at all in LI people) so it has a low GI. The high II of milk is due to the whey content.
so milk could be used as a MRP? How much whey in a pint of milk?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 10 2008 14:29:21
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: popeye_wannabe
so milk could be used as a MRP? How much whey in a pint of milk? 1 pint of milk is ~568ml. 100ml of cow's milk contains ~3.7g of protein, so 1 pint contains ~21g of protein of which ~4g is whey and ~17g is casein.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 10 2008 17:41:45
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R3261
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pleased to have you aboard David
quote:
As for the pre-workout problems, they're easily avoided. I've never had anyone follow my instructions and have issues with blood sugar, nausea, or sluggishness
i somewhat agree. a relatively lean active individual is unlikely to go hyper. others more so.
quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FatboyGinger
What I don't understand is why you advocate leaving it half an hour before giving yourself protein+ carbs, then say that whey is slow digesting. What about taking whey directly after a workout, assuming it takes 30 minutes to digest? Wouldn't this be much easier that using pre digested whey?
I like your point, but let's be clear: whey is not slow digesting (I don't think this was ever stated). One can certainly use an intermediate speed protein like whey isolate or concentrate immediately after a workout, and very likely avoid protein resistance, but 1) the growth and recovery response is not likely to be as strong 2) It reduces the likelihood that a second protein pulse is going to be effective.
That said, your idea is very low maintenance and far more practical for most people. Again, I'm dealing with optimization, which is neither necessary nor for everyone.
.
1. from David's article, the basis for waiting prior to pwo consumption
Comparing research that used drinks consumed immediately after a workout (Tipton et al., 2001) versus those ingested an hour after training (Rasmussen et al., 2000), the results are surprising: it seems that post workout meal ingestion actually results in 30% lower protein synthesis rates than when we wait
so that's taking 2 differnet populations and state with fact that its 30% lower....
2. on two pwos shake's :
This is where research by Borsheim and pals (2002) comes in. This landmark research shows that the best thing to consume after our post workout meal is… another protein shake! In fact, if we time it right, we’ll get the same huge increase in protein synthesis. Talk about a double whammy for our muscle growth! Now considering how crazy people get when it comes to a single post workout meal, imagine how they’ll react when you tell them that they can double that effect!
the borsheim doesnt show that the best thing to consume is anything really
it shows that small amounts of EAA (6gs!!!!) dont maximally stimulate protein synthesis in fasted state ...
who here is taking 5gs EAA pwo? no surprise that the second bout an hour later will further enhance protein synthesis
i also like the bit about another shake. of course a meal would be a big no-no
3. hydrolyzed whey
The protein is already broken up into large peptides, so we get a rapid absorption with peak levels reaching the blood at around 80 minutes (Calbet and MacLean, 2002), compared to 60 minutes for pharmaceutical grade amino acids (Borsheim et al., 2002).
way to go once again research from two different population groups
in theory the hydrolysate peptides should get into the body quicker than free AAs. there are peptide transporters on the epithlium and ~50-60% of AAs are taken up as peptieds...
but the speed difference into the cell may be limited by the fact that very few peptides make it back out of the epithelium and into circulationn... because of breakdown of the peptides within the colonic epithelium
at the end of the day, how much difference are we talking about time wise?
seconds?
minutes?
does this amount to anything in terms of response? I doubt it
------
great posts Iaink and Nigeepoo
< Message edited by R3261 -- May 10 2008 19:20:40 >
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 10 2008 18:37:51
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R3261
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bump for David (as he is online) to substantiate his claims with recent research
< Message edited by R3261 -- May 10 2008 18:46:48 >
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 10 2008 18:40:11
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iaink
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Good going youreslf R3261 
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