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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 11:54:13
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brittas
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Does this argument also changes peoples opinion on the pre-bed meal?
If you've had your calories during the day, do you really need a pre-bed meal?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 12:01:30
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dazc
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id still say pre bed is very important if your looking to gain mass
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 12:16:50
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brittas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazc
id still say pre bed is very important if your looking to gain mass
What about cutting?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 12:42:17
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iaink
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quote:
Does this argument also changes peoples opinion on the pre-bed meal?
If you've had your calories during the day, do you really need a pre-bed meal?
I'd say your not far wrong. In practice I eat before bed, but if you have ingested your kcals and macronutrients in by tea time then I don't really think it will make much if any of a difference.
As an example (don't get bogged down with the detail just the idea);
a) 8pm a curry approx 1000kcals with 50g protein
b) 8pm a curry appox 800kcals with 30g protein- 10-11pm shake approx 200kcals with 20g of protein
Do people really think there'd be a difference in effect from the above a) vs b) ?
Therefore I'd disagree with the highlighted below
quote:
id still say pre bed is very important if your looking to gain mass
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 12:44:00
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richsINS
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So people will not have PWO when supposedly our muscles are more receptive to taking up nutrients.
Yet they'll eat to fuel a time they are the least active in their whole day.
Seems odd when you put it like that 
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 12:48:18
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iaink
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quote:
So people will not have PWO when supposedly our muscles are more receptive to taking up nutrients.
Yet they'll eat to fuel a time they are the least active in their whole day.
Has anybody actually said that?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 12:55:11
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T0NY
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quote:
So people will not have PWO when supposedly our muscles are more receptive to taking up nutrients.
Yet they'll eat to fuel a time they are the least active in their whole day.
I eat when it fits in with my day to day business.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 13:03:53
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iaink
quote:
So people will not have PWO when supposedly our muscles are more receptive to taking up nutrients.
Yet they'll eat to fuel a time they are the least active in their whole day.
Has anybody actually said that?
Not directly no, but from people saying bed times meals important and others saying PWO meal is no big deal to them this may be the eventual out come.
*BUMP FOR DAVID BARR* Was looking forward to a decent discussion, seems people are mocking him though which may of killed any chance of that 
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 14:36:48
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theiopener
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Rich people arent mocking David, they are questioning him and his ways of debating. I admit i was a little harsh earlier on but TBH it annoyed me when i asked a question and it got suggested to buy his book for the answer
Id love him to come in here and engage in the discussion so as all of can learn from it
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 14:43:49
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iaink
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quote:
Rich people arent mocking David, they are questioning him and his ways of debating. I admit i was a little harsh earlier on but TBH it annoyed me when i asked a question and it got suggested to buy his book for the answer
Id love him to come in here and engage in the discussion so as all of can learn from it
Snap. I have plenty of respect for David Barr and believe nobody was 'mocking him'.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 15:39:58
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iaink
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For a good study that actually contradicts my general ideas on timing see Cribbs et al. 2006 (or was it 04?) Medicine and science in sports and exercise.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 16:09:28
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R3261
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06 a great study
pre/ post w/o basically outperformed the morning/evening group in every measured outcome
particular relevant in that it was with non fasted experienced trainees looking at long term effect of supplementation, not acute responses like most of the studies
***bump for David
(not mocking)
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 16:27:50
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richsINS
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What did the study find? whats the "Morning/evening group"?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 17:07:18
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Nigeepoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: R3261
06 a great study pre/ post w/o basically outperformed the morning/evening group in every measured outcome particular relevant in that it was with non fasted experienced trainees looking at long term effect of supplementation, not acute responses like most of the studies Link? I can't find it on PubMed.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 17:10:15
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R3261
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a pro/carb/creatine drink given to experienced trainees at either pre/immediately post w/o in group versus one given in the morning/evening in the other over a period of 10 weeks. in both groups a meal was consumed 1 hour pwo. normal eating patterns were maintained for the rest of the day.
study found the pre/post out performed the morning/evening session, in all markers. muscle gain, fat loss, strength gains
available here
http://www.box.net/shared/t536cds4k8
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 17:17:24
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richsINS
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Oooh found it http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19370&highlight=cribbs
Ah didnt refresh, im to slow  
TY
Is this the only study confirming this, do others dispute it?
< Message edited by richsINS -- May 12 2008 17:18:30 >
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 18:31:04
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R3261
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what's to dispute ?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 19:58:39
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David Barr
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quote:
ORIGINAL: R3261
1. from David's article, the basis for waiting prior to pwo consumption
Comparing research that used drinks consumed immediately after a workout (Tipton et al., 2001) versus those ingested an hour after training (Rasmussen et al., 2000), the results are surprising: it seems that post workout meal ingestion actually results in 30% lower protein synthesis rates than when we wait
so that's taking 2 differnet populations and state with fact that its 30% lower....
I'd really like to see such a comparison done on the same group, but it will never be done. The reason I'd even peruse such an idea is because 30% is an absolutely huge difference! Throw in the fact that these studies both came out of the same lab (the one in which I worked), it means that the work was done by the same individuals, using the same equipment. Even if the difference was lower, the latter point counts for a lot.
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2. on two pwos shake's :
This is where research by Borsheim and pals (2002) comes in. This landmark research shows that the best thing to consume after our post workout meal is… another protein shake! In fact, if we time it right, we’ll get the same huge increase in protein synthesis. Talk about a double whammy for our muscle growth! Now considering how crazy people get when it comes to a single post workout meal, imagine how they’ll react when you tell them that they can double that effect!
the borsheim doesnt show that the best thing to consume is anything really
Having spoken with her at length about this, I disagree (as would she). At the time, this was the first glimpse into Protein Pulse Feeding. There is no suggestion that such an event wouldn't occur with higher amounts of amino acids.
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i also like the bit about another shake. of course a meal would be a big no-no
I'm truly glad you like it but you're exaggerating the claim. At the time, this was simply the ideal protocol. It's meant to provide people with another tool for optimization.
quote:
3. hydrolyzed whey
The protein is already broken up into large peptides, so we get a rapid absorption with peak levels reaching the blood at around 80 minutes (Calbet and MacLean, 2002), compared to 60 minutes for pharmaceutical grade amino acids (Borsheim et al., 2002).
way to go once again research from two different population groups
I sincerely don't understand your sardonic attitude. You're really doing yourself a disservice.
If you choose to believe that you can't compare the 2 groups then I have no problem with that. For me it's reasonable to do do provided that the person doing the original analysis (ie me) understands the potential drawbacks and takes them into account.
quote:
in theory the hydrolysate peptides should get into the body quicker than free AAs. there are peptide transporters on the epithlium and ~50-60% of AAs are taken up as peptieds...
You're grossly overgeneralizing here. Amino acids are taken up as di and tri-peptides, but whey hydrolysate can come with varying degrees of hydrolyzation. This is evidenced by the referenced rise in serum aa.
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but the speed difference into the cell may be limited by the fact that very few peptides make it back out of the epithelium and into circulationn... because of breakdown of the peptides within the colonic epithelium
I'm not sure which cell you're originally referring to. We have data on both the rise in serum aa as well as muscle amino acid uptake.
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at the end of the day, how much difference are we talking about time wise? seconds? minutes? does this amount to anything in terms of response? I doubt it
The rate of amino acid uptake into the blood correlates directly with the rise in muscle protein synthesis. As for practical application, we're talking an ideal. Even if the difference at the end of the year were 2% that's about 20x more difference than many of my athletes need to win.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 20:27:50
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dazc
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Therefore I'd disagree with the highlighted below
quote:
id still say pre bed is very important if your looking to gain mass
well i still stand buy it, though maybe i can word it a little differently or explain it.
I think its down to the individual, for some eating enough cals is never a problem and they are prone to fat gain.
for others getting to the number of calories needed is very difficult while keeping it clean and healthy, purely by the fact its another meal (though in the shape of a shake) adds more cals to the totals and helps gains.
i do still think that its more important than that though, to anyone thats trying to gain muscle, your going to be in bed for a good 8 hours (or somehting like that) thats a long time if you had your last meal 2 hours before bed.
best evidence i can offer is that when i have a prebed shake (mine is james's super smoothie) i gain. if i take it out i stop gaining.
others like myself that struggle to gain weight will definately benifit from a prebed meal/shake, i cant comment on others that gain weight easily or that are cutting
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