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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 20:51:06
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James
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
Raj for mod! 
Why, because he has questioned a knowledgable guy?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 21:22:52
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R3261
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quote:
I'd really like to see such a comparison done on the same group, but it will never be done. The reason I'd even peruse such an idea is because 30% is an absolutely huge difference! Throw in the fact that these studies both came out of the same lab (the one in which I worked), it means that the work was done by the same individuals, using the same equipment. Even if the difference was lower, the latter point counts for a lot.
extrapolates research from multiple groups to form an opinion is a near futile exercise. stating as fact, the manner done so in the article ie either retarded, incompetence or deliberately misleading
quote:
Having spoken with her at length about this, I disagree (as would she). At the time, this was the first glimpse into Protein Pulse Feeding. There is no suggestion that such an event wouldn't occur with higher amounts of amino acids
you are kidding ? surely
the borsheim study was 6g EAAs. nothing else
tell me how/why in a properly prefueled trainee, with suffiecient pro/carbs pwo a second bout would elicit a similar let alone more anabolic response
quote:
I'm truly glad you like it but you're exaggerating the claim. At the time, this was simply the ideal protocol. It's meant to provide people with another tool for optimization
i see it as another plug for Surge
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I sincerely don't understand your sardonic attitude. You're really doing yourself a disservice.
If you choose to believe that you can't compare the 2 groups then I have no problem with that. For me it's reasonable to do do provided that the person doing the original analysis (ie me) understands the potential drawbacks and takes them into account
once again extrapolating to mislead. it all fair and well aruging you can pick bits and bobs from different research to form a sound recommendation, when we know it's complete b0llocks
from your article even the highly touted whey isolate is completely useless for our timing purposes here, because it just takes too long to get taken up by the gut (Dangin et al., 2002). This is all discussed in more detail in the official product review of Surge, complete with graphs of blood amino acid profiles
as i see it when the whey arrives in the gut, there is quick availability of lots of amino acids (as peptidases dont muck around), well enough in the case of WPC/WPI to saturate the uptake of amino acids, so in the affect is somewhat muted, at least in the short term (which the graph below shows)
don't make makes hydrolyzed fast, whey slow. does it?
show me a study looking at intact whey versus hydrolzed and a substantial difference in absorption
one in adults
not infants
can't. of course not. because it doesn't exist
another pathetic plug for Surge
quote:
Even if the difference at the end of the year were 2% that's about 20x more difference than many of my athletes need to win.
how can you reconcile this with the above ?
Eur J Nutr. 2004 Jun;43(3):127-39. 2004 Jan 6.
Gastric emptying, gastric secretion and enterogastrone response after administration of milk proteins or their peptide hydrolysates in humans.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 21:27:39
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theiopener
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quote:
ORIGINAL: James
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
Raj for mod!
Why, because he has questioned a knowledgable guy?
i was joking James hence the smiley 
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 21:28:37
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R3261
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no you was not
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 12 2008 21:42:52
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James
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
quote:
ORIGINAL: James
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
Raj for mod!
Why, because he has questioned a knowledgable guy?
i was joking James hence the smiley
What was the joke? I'm still missing it!
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 11:29:31
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BigMe
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id like to hear drewsky's opinions on this!
personally, ive got no scientific studies to tout on this, just my own experiences using no PWO shake, then PWO shakes without, then with dextrose, and most recently Peri WO shakes of Protein and dex pre and during WO, and Post WO shake of protein, dex and leucine. i monitor result with mirrors, tape, bf% calipers and scales, and the best results ive ever had are over the last year using Peri WO shakes including dex.
< Message edited by BigMe -- May 13 2008 11:30:59 >
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 11:58:04
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iaink
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quote:
personally, ive got no scientific studies to tout on this, just my own experiences using no PWO shake, then PWO shakes without, then with dextrose, and most recently Peri WO shakes of Protein and dex pre and during WO, and Post WO shake of protein, dex and leucine. i monitor result with mirrors, tape, bf% calipers and scales, and the best results ive ever had are over the last year using Peri WO shakes including dex.
Results are what counts!
Where the shakes extra to your normal diet resulting in a greater intake of kcals or was it just a case or re-arranging your normal kcal and macronutrient intake? I assume your training was constant?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 13:29:02
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazc
best evidence i can offer is that when i have a prebed shake (mine is james's super smoothie) i gain. if i take it out i stop gaining.
Because the shake allowed you to consume more calories, or because you rearranged your meals to ensure you got food immediately before falling to sleep?
Sounds like the former, in which case it probably provided you with excess calories and you gained?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 13:41:14
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BigMe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iaink
quote:
personally, ive got no scientific studies to tout on this, just my own experiences using no PWO shake, then PWO shakes without, then with dextrose, and most recently Peri WO shakes of Protein and dex pre and during WO, and Post WO shake of protein, dex and leucine. i monitor result with mirrors, tape, bf% calipers and scales, and the best results ive ever had are over the last year using Peri WO shakes including dex.
Results are what counts!
Where the shakes extra to your normal diet resulting in a greater intake of kcals or was it just a case or re-arranging your normal kcal and macronutrient intake? I assume your training was constant?
exactly mate, when there is conflicting information/studies/opinions, ill try each protocol and find out what works for me. its been said before a million times, but will be repeated once more here by me - what works for one, wont necessarily work for another! ive stressed massively over how to make the PWO window work optimally for me, wanted to get everything perfect, but rather than do more extensive reading on the subject, i just decided to try everything for a month and see what yielded best results. diet remained the same as it always does, 6 meals in the day, 1 meal 1.5hours pre work out, 1 meal 1 hour after PWO shake. training constant.
the most recent amendment ive made to my pre/during workout nutrition is actually to lower the amount of dex from 50g to circa 20g in my shake (keeping protein at 60g) as i read that insulin spikes reduce the amount of growth hormone released when training.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 15:45:29
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James
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BigMe
id like to hear drewsky's opinions on this!
personally, ive got no scientific studies to tout on this, just my own experiences using no PWO shake, then PWO shakes without, then with dextrose, and most recently Peri WO shakes of Protein and dex pre and during WO, and Post WO shake of protein, dex and leucine. i monitor result with mirrors, tape, bf% calipers and scales, and the best results ive ever had are over the last year using Peri WO shakes including dex.
me too - Ill email him!
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 16:03:17
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dazc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
quote:
ORIGINAL: dazc
best evidence i can offer is that when i have a prebed shake (mine is james's super smoothie) i gain. if i take it out i stop gaining.
Because the shake allowed you to consume more calories, or because you rearranged your meals to ensure you got food immediately before falling to sleep?
Sounds like the former, in which case it probably provided you with excess calories and you gained?
i think it is a combination of both, though its hard to say, as im on the limit of what i can consume each meal, so it would be impossible for me to replace the cals lost in other meals
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 16:18:23
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dazc
i think it is a combination of both, though its hard to say, as im on the limit of what i can consume each meal, so it would be impossible for me to replace the cals lost in other meals
Yeah fair enough.
Have you posted the foods youre eating to see if we find less filling replacements to allow you gain easier? Although if your gaining well theres no need.
quote:
ORIGINAL: R3261
what's to dispute ?
Well are there other studies that have found similar or different results to support/challenge this studys findings?
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 16:24:41
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dazc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
Yeah fair enough.
Have you posted the foods youre eating to see if we find less filling replacements to allow you gain easier? Although if your gaining well theres no need.
diet is by james,
but thanks for the offer, its appreciated mate
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 17:28:26
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David Barr
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R3261 I've spent far too much time tolerating your sarcasm, blatant insults, and disrespect in the hope of great conversation. In spite of your level of knowledge you have just shown that you are no longer worth dealing with.
quote:
ORIGINAL: R3261
stating as fact, the manner done so in the article ie either retarded, incompetence or deliberately misleading
you are kidding ? surely
i see it as another plug for Surge
once again extrapolating to mislead. it all fair and well aruging you can pick bits and bobs from different research to form a sound recommendation, when we know it's complete b0llocks
another pathetic plug for Surge
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 17:45:19
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theiopener
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May be so David but for the sake of the debate would you mind answering as i was quite looking forward to learning a bit if possible 
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 13 2008 18:23:51
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David Barr
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I do feel somewhat guilty in leaving the thread as it is, so allow me to summarize.
It comes down to a disagreement about how applicable the literature is. I've had NUMEROUS conversations like this before, and it always turns into "you can't say that!" vs. "yes I can!" (usually I'm on the 'can't' side).
If one feels that the data are insufficient to apply, I have absolutely no problem with that. This is the cutting edge of applied theory and it's going to be controversial. After all, if it's not controversial then it's likely nothing new. That said, I stand by my ideas and believe that the literature does as well. The results of my clients would tend to confirm this.
Conclusion: if something sounds good to you and you want to try it (without significant cost to you or others), I'm always for it. If you don't want to try it, that's fine too. I think the most important thing is that people make reason-based decisions and try to help each other as much as we can.
Cheers
quote:
ORIGINAL: theiopener
May be so David but for the sake of the debate would you mind answering as i was quite looking forward to learning a bit if possible
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 14 2008 10:10:51
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BigMe
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bump for Drewsky who is on now
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 14 2008 13:19:53
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drewsky
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Wow, long thread - which unfortunatly I don;t have time to read all of so here's my thoughts on the subject...
The science:
There are MANY interesting pieces of research, groups of data, thoughts, hypotheses, books and article based on research etc out there and most are worth reading. In fact it's been a while since I looked at this in detail so I am probably behind on the data coming out from the various teams looking at this, however as before there's contradiction but still strong peices of research demostrating the efficacy of peri workout nutrition. I don't want to talk about it that much though.
The practice:
I have been working with more and more athletes in the gym and in the clinic so whilst I'm probably not up to date on the theory (and wasn't ever compared to DB!) practical day to day side my knowledge has grown.
There are a couple of big issues things to remember:
1)Peri workout nutrition is an umbrella term for a variety of different protocols
2)The protocol(s) you use depend upon a variety of different factors in no order: A) whole diet, B) training frequency C) training type and balance of different types (e.g. full body, various splits, 'sports [and all the different type therein - I've worked with ultradistance cyclists to shot putters!]', sports with full body weights, sports with part splits weights, physique and sports, pure physique) D) body composition and then E) body recomposition goals AS WELL AS others like health, fuel substrate types as well as what people are willing and bale to do timing wise.
There is no one prescription for PeriWO nutrition just as there is no one type of client.
In practical terms I wouldn't usually look at all the factors involved in point 2 (unless you're paying me the big bucks) but I would look at the majority of them and keep other strongly in mind when I am looking at the big picture. However for the most part clients will usually get some carbs shortly before and some more after with either hydro whey, hydro whey and specific AA's or just specific AA's. But not all in the same way:
My experience with giving people carbs at this time shows me that I have to think about the types used, mixture used and quantities used whether it be one or more of malto., dext., WMS, palatinose, fructose, rice oligdex., etc or whole food source.
Either way, more often than not you are going to get carbs from at this time if you work with me, more often than not they will be just before if not during training as well as after and more often than not they are going to be a non whole food source, a combination of carbs and in liquid form mixed with protein.
I use it because science asside for a minute, IN MY EXPERIENCE WITH ATHLETES IN THE GYM AND ON THE FIELD, TRACK AND ROAD
It allows people to perform at a higher intensity for longer, and concentrate at the same time.
It is the right intake procedure with regards to reflux, wet burps and other GI distress (this is a good example where CHO type is really important).
It has positive implications for hydration (again CHO type important)
It allows people to recover more quickly - based not only how they feel but how they perform.
It allows people a more successful and higher total training volume.
It allows people more CHO intake and great total cal load before significant fat mass and weight changes are seen (important for both physique and sport including of course weight class sports)
It seems to help people on the health side reducing the frequency of illness and injury.
Of course I have no data to back these finding up, they are based on observation, they may also be due to other changes I make in diet but IMO, knowing what else I am doing in each case they are due to a great extent to the changes in PeriWO nutrition.
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RE: Dextrose in PWO Shake? - May 14 2008 13:40:06
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iaink
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Good post Drew but this has drifted into athletic perofmance rather than increasing protein balance and therefor chronic changes in muscle mass through a shake, which was my assumption the discssuion was about?
From an atheltic persepective some nutrition to help fuel training, particulary longer training bouts, I am sure is in some way benficial, dependent on many factors you have mentioned.
quote:
It allows people to perform at a higher intensity for longer, and concentrate at the same time. Dependent on modality of training
It is the right intake procedure with regards to reflux, wet burps and other GI distress (this is a good example where CHO type is really important).
It has positive implications for hydration (again CHO type important)
It allows people to recover more quickly - based not only how they feel but how they perform. From repeated bouts of training
It allows people a more successful and higher total training volume. Again depenent on modality of exercise
It allows people more CHO intake and great total cal load before significant fat mass and weight changes are seen (important for both physique and sport including of course weight class sports) Why would intake at other times non peri (ie imediatly prior and post) not allow this
It seems to help people on the health side reducing the frequency of illness and injury. What mechnaism exhist to claim this beyond what you feel may happen?
While you make sensible recomendations I feel you are over egging the importance of highly specific peri nutrition, and here I feel 'never the twain shall meet'! (at least at the monent!)
This has been a good thread!
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