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negatives ??? - May 8 2008 21:47:09
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mike20uk
Posts: 105
Joined: Dec. 29 2007
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ok,
so im struggeling on the bench currently.
so i figured, up the weight from 85kg too 105 and only perform the lowering of the weight, with the assistance of my training partner.
if i did that for say 2 weeks, 2 times a week ...
would that enable mee too start pressing 95kg ?
just an idea
mike
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RE: negatives ??? - May 8 2008 22:15:21
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Mortimer
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Hello Mate.
Ok first of all a jump from 85 KG straight upto 105kg is a bit big. Your talking a 20 KG jump ...so thats 45 lbs in one go. Thats just ridiculous. For young males that weigh between 150-200 lbs., deadlifts can move up 15-20 lbs. per workout, squats 10-15 lbs., with continued steady progress for 3-4 weeks before slowing down to half that rate. Bench presses, presses, and cleans (edit - and rows) can move up 5-10 lbs. per workout, with progress on these exercises slowing down to 2.5-5 lbs. per workout after only 2-3 weeks. Young women make progress on the squat and the deadlift at about the same rate, adjusted for bodyweight, but much slower on the press, the bench press, cleans and snatches, and assistance exercises.
Also theres a big to do about over concentrating on the nagative portion of a lift. IMO this is something over peddled by such rubbish that might be found in something like "Flex Magazines guide to getting huge" or the "Jay Cutler Get Huge Routine"...some crap like that. Musclemag and Flex are IMO better left on the shelf to gather dust. Make your jumps smaller as outlined above...and dont bother with this over concentration on negatives..just control the negative and use a controlled but fast motion on the positive.
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RE: negatives ??? - May 8 2008 22:20:40
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mike20uk
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i was skeptical tbh ..
i just want too get too the 100kg bp so bad ...
and ive been stuck at 85 for 2 weeks :(
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RE: negatives ??? - May 8 2008 22:37:02
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Jamesw
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85 is along way off 100, doing negatives for 2 weeks wont make you be able to do it if your not getting stronger anyway, you might find its down to your diet why your not gaining
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RE: negatives ??? - May 8 2008 22:55:25
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mike20uk
Posts: 105
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yeah, i no .. im probs rushing arnt i ...
my diet at the moment is the best its been in ages ...
could add an extra meal i guess ... would that make diff ?
currently .. 3.5k cal & around 200 - 230 protien
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RE: negatives ??? - May 9 2008 8:44:42
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buzzer
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this might interest you
"Negatives" is a bodybuilding term used to describe the eccentric portion of a movement or exercise. In research you will sometimes see it referred to as "active lengthening". This means stretching a muscle to increase its length while under voluntary contraction to resist the stretch. The result of this eccentric action is an increase in tissue micro damage and an increase in eccentric strength.
Negatives are known to be responsible for the infamous delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) that so many of us sadistically strive to achieve. The increase in eccentric strength is a result of neurological adaptations facilitating motor unit coordination during eccentric contractions. As bodybuilders, all we are interested in is the microtrauma.
As mentioned on numerous occasions, we must have micro trauma in order to allow growth factors to "leak out" into the interstitial space, and thus to activate satellite cells. These satellite cells then donate myo-nuclei which help to produce additional contractile and structural proteins.
Certainly I would not recommend negatives unless there were some evidence indicating there usefulness. Type II fibers are favorably activated by the muscle during eccentric contractions as compared to type I fibers. Type II fibers are those that contribute the majority of growth produced by bodybuilding type training. The stimuli from eccentric loading and concentric loading are similar except that the proportions of the stimuli from eccentric loading are different in some very important ways.
First, the load that is placed on the muscle during an eccentric movement is not distributed over as many fibers as during a concentric movement (Ebbeling,1989). When measuring EMG activity, or the electrical activity in the muscle, Ebbeling found that it is lower during negative work at both maximal and submaximal intensities. This suggests that relatively few fibers are recruited to produce large forces. Therefore, under comparable workloads, eccentric actions produce greater tension per cross-sectional area of active muscle than concentric contractions. In other words, lowering the weight produces more load per fiber than lifting it!
Does increasing the load per fiber as seen in eccentric contractions lead to increases in fiber diameter or simply put, GROWTH?
Hortobagyi (Hortobagyi, 1996) found dramatic differences between subjects performing isokinetic concentric contractions as compared to isokinetic eccentric contractions. Muscle strength, fiber size, and surface EMG activity of the quadriceps were compared after 36 sessions (12 weeks) of maximal isokinetic concentric or eccentric leg extensions.
Eccentric training increased eccentric strength 3.5 times more (pre/post 46%) than concentric training increased concentric strength (pre/post 13%). Eccentric training increased concentric strength and concentric training increased eccentric strength by about the same magnitude (5 and 10%, respectively). Eccentric training increased EMG activity seven times more during eccentric testing (pre/post 86%) than concentric training increased EMG activity during concentric testing (pre/post 12%). Eccentric training increased the EMG activity measured during concentric tests and concentric training increased the EMG activity measured during eccentric tests by about the same magnitude (8 and 11%, respectively).
Type I muscle fiber percentages did not change significantly, but type IIa fibers increased and type IIb fibers decreased significantly in both training groups. Type I fiber areas did not change significantly, but type II fiber area increased approximately 10 times more in the eccentric than in the concentric group.
It was concluded by these authors that adaptations to training with maximal eccentric contractions are specific to eccentric muscle actions that are associated with greater neural adaptation and muscle hypertrophy than concentric exercise. It is the specificity of this type of exercise that gives it questionable value to performance athletes.
There has been a lot of controversy surrounding the optimal amount to weight that should be used during eccentric work. Rather than argue who is right and who is wrong, just remember that if a movement is too fast, say 1 second or less, not enough fibers will be participating to get good growth. If the movement is too slow, you begin to do quasi-isometric movements that fail to induce sufficient micro trauma. You may be asking, "how much weight should I use?". That question is answered by the amount of time it should take you to perform the eccentric rep. If it is too heavy you wont be able to slow the weight down sufficiently, if the weight is too light you will find yourself "lowering" the weight even though you could stop the weight from falling.
Eccentric movements should be performed with the help of a spotter whenever possible. I make no claim that eccentric reps should only be performed sparingly. There is no evidence that I have seen that would contraindicate the frequent use of negatives in a "bodybuilding" routine. If you are a performance athlete you should focus on muscle movements that most closely represent those used in your sport. There are not many sports that require heavy eccentric contractions more than skilled concentric contractions so excessive eccentric work would thus be contraindicated.
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RE: negatives ??? - May 10 2008 0:45:05
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beefycol
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mike20uk
i was skeptical tbh ..
i just want too get too the 100kg bp so bad ...
and ive been stuck at 85 for 2 weeks :(
2 weeks that it. lol. what you panicing for now.
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RE: negatives ??? - May 10 2008 17:29:52
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Raskolnikov
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From: Margate
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mike20uk
i was skeptical tbh ..
i just want too get too the 100kg bp so bad ...
and ive been stuck at 85 for 2 weeks :(
You'll get there eventually, it just takes time
If you're stuck at a certain weight, there are some strategies that will help bust through the plateau:
1) Change your set/rep scheme. For instance, if you're currently doing 3x8, perhaps try 4x6 or 5x5 for a while
2) Go down in weight eg drop down to about 70-75kg and build back up again. The idea of backing off like this is taking one step back to take two steps forward
Negatives may certainly come in useful at times, but as has been noted, if diet isn't up to scratch, you may not benefit from them
2 weeks isn't too bad though, some folks get stuck at a weight for longer than that!
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RE: negatives ??? - May 11 2008 0:25:04
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mike20uk
Posts: 105
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well, went gym today ...
did 1 set 6 at 75
and then blasted out 2 sets of 8 at 90 ....
im rather happy atm !
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