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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 16 2008 22:05:10
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JohnOvManchester
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quote:
ORIGINAL: T0NY
John is the diagram above all your own work?
Think your banging your head on a brick wall here.
I thought it would help LOL
I think MuscleQuest is winding us up, but sometimes you just can not help but reply.
Where's lord monkcheese and his graphs... we need a graph or something
I found this on youtube...
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 16 2008 22:19:03
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MuscleQuest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
It's mainly a lat exercise but a lot of other back muscles are involved.
Cable rows are a lat exercise. They do not hit the rest of the back adequately enough for them to be deemed useful for the rest of the back. They are a lat exercise and a very mediocre exercise because of the nature of the movement and the overt stress they place on the biceps/forearms. They are not effective for working anything other than lats
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 16 2008 22:28:50
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cricket_fire
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MuscleQuest
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
It's mainly a lat exercise but a lot of other back muscles are involved.
Cable rows are a lat exercise. They do not hit the rest of the back adequately enough for them to be deemed useful for the rest of the back. They are a lat exercise and a very mediocre exercise because of the nature of the movement and the overt stress they place on the biceps/forearms. They are not effective for working anything other than lats
Prove it
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 16 2008 22:37:11
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s man
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MuscleQuest
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
It's mainly a lat exercise but a lot of other back muscles are involved.
Cable rows are a lat exercise. They do not hit the rest of the back adequately enough for them to be deemed useful for the rest of the back. They are a lat exercise and a very mediocre exercise because of the nature of the movement and the overt stress they place on the biceps/forearms. They are not effective for working anything other than lats
Notice in the pictures of the pro's doing cable rows that they are all wearing straps as to take the movement stress away from the forearms/bi's and all on the back.
Also when doing them with a very narrow handle the main focus is on the middle back as long as your not stretching the lats out at the start of the movement.
It really is a mind muscle thing with lats/back. If you can get your head focused you can pull with the muscle you want to hit but so many people just move the weight without seeking the connection.
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 4:09:33
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Mad Manic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MuscleQuest
Cable rows are a lat exercise. They do not hit the rest of the back adequately enough for them to be deemed useful for the rest of the back. They are a lat exercise and a very mediocre exercise because of the nature of the movement and the overt stress they place on the biceps/forearms. They are not effective for working anything other than lats
I would say that they are mainly a middle back exercise; traps, rhomboids, teres major/minor, but they do work the lats and erectors a bit as well. I do agree that they do work the forearms and biceps considerably as well, such is the nature of this compound movement with a close-grip. I rate them as a finishing move, not a main builder. BO Barbell Rows and Heavy Chins are staples, Cable rows are just a finisher so IMO yes they are inferior. Jay Cutler doing them means nothing, he could just be finishing off with them or doing them for a change up in his training.
MM
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 4:13:38
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Mad Manic
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Kevin Levrone in the 1995 BFTO vids says that BO Rows and Lat Pulldowns are his staples for mass and cable rows are a finishing move for 'adding detail', which is really just a BBers way of saying 'to finish off the wearing down of all the fibres and provide that further stimulus for growth'.
MM
< Message edited by Mad Manic -- May 17 2008 4:14:03 >
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 14:50:29
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JohnOvManchester
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- Jay
- Ronnie
- Rhul
- Flex Wheeler
- Lee Priest
- Arnie
and counless others as cricket said including powerlifts use them all you have to do is look at the physics of it, we have all posted reasons why they are good, muscles hit with nothing of any substance to the contrary
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 16:37:52
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s man
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I agree with you Johnovmanchester but there can be no doubt that row's, deads and chins/pulldowns are the daddy.
I do think that cables have a place but really think they are a waste for most of us and there is a lot more to be gained from the 3 above imo.
That said I like to use a low cable at the end of a workout but only after pulldowns, db rows, hammer strength hi row and t bar
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 16:44:46
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Jazz
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Has anyone had more success from training their back more frequently ?
But not really increasing the total number of sets.....
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 17:15:35
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JohnOvManchester
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quote:
ORIGINAL: s man
I agree with you Johnovmanchester but there can be no doubt that row's, deads and chins/pulldowns are the daddy.
I do think that cables have a place but really think they are a waste for most of us and there is a lot more to be gained from the 3 above imo.
That said I like to use a low cable at the end of a workout but only after pulldowns, db rows, hammer strength hi row and t bar
I agree mate, as said in my 1st post on this thread you could do anyas long as you cover:
- pull from below
- pull from infront
- pull from above
The thread might be confusing but if you look back all we have been doing is presenting evidence against saying they are usless or the most inferior of back exercises and in fact they are very useful basic compound.
My personal choice if I could only have 1 exercise only would be cable rows, reasons as they mainly hit the lats for width but work lot's of other muscles to add thickness in the main back erectors, rhomboids, traps etc etc
Not everyone will agree with my personal choice but I see it as a compramise between all back lifts as it's a bit of an all rounder.
Most people would pick deadlifts, that's fair enough, some people would pick bent over rows which is also fair enough.
< Message edited by JohnOvManchester -- May 17 2008 17:19:46 >
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 17:34:11
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Mad Manic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
- Jay
- Ronnie
- Rhul
- Flex Wheeler
- Lee Priest
- Arnie
and counless others as cricket said including powerlifts use them all you have to do is look at the physics of it, we have all posted reasons why they are good, muscles hit with nothing of any substance to the contrary
But it's seen as a finishing move and not a staple. It's like arguing that cable curls are the number one option for biceps whilst someone else says BB Curls are the best and cable curls are just a finishing move. Most pros who use cable rows say they're a finishing move. Even Cutler implied it, I remember in one of his vids he talks about he has two back days, one for the main 'heavy' stuff like Deads, BB Rows etc. and another for 'lighter' stuff with volume like Pull-Ups with the assist machine real strict, cable rows with perfect form etc. Levrone says they are a finishing move as well.
MM
< Message edited by Mad Manic -- May 17 2008 17:35:15 >
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 17:38:52
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MuscleQuest
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
- Jay
- Ronnie
- Rhul
- Flex Wheeler
- Lee Priest
- Arnie
and counless others as cricket said including powerlifts use them all you have to do is look at the physics of it, we have all posted reasons why they are good, muscles hit with nothing of any substance to the contrary
You haven't given any evidence to the contrary. All you have is some useless diagrams about the fact the biceps should not be the primary muscles involved, which you hark on and on about when its not even relevant to the point I was making and then result to personal insults toward me. Your not an expert on anything, its your personal opinion. At no point did I ever say cable rows should not be used I'm not trying to get an agreement from you, its not about whos right or wrong. I think that cable rows are useful for only one thing and irregardless of how you attempt to mince my words and discredit my input the minority of people agree with you. Its amusing actually because I was going to type something relevant about how if a pro is seen doing a movement in one of their videos people assume that is all they do, and they equate the exercises done by such and such in one video to the results they see. Sure enough there you are harking on about all the pros doing cable rows ''so they must be good''. I'm fully aware Ronnie and all the rest do cable rows, SHOCK HORROR! to what extent and for what purpose they use them is entirely unsubstatiated
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
The thread might be confusing but if you look back all we have been doing is presenting evidence against saying they are usless or the most inferior of back exercises and in fact they are very useful basic compound.
My personal choice if I could only have 1 exercise only would be cable rows, reasons as they mainly hit the lats for width but work lot's of other muscles to add thickness in the main back erectors, rhomboids, traps etc etc
Not everyone will agree with my personal choice but I see it as a compramise between all back lifts as it's a bit of an all rounder.
Most people would pick deadlifts, that's fair enough, some people would pick bent over rows which is also fair enough.
Nothing more
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 17 2008 18:02:48
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JohnOvManchester
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So you have been told why they are used:
- from my own experiance,
- from training with BBing competitors,
- from education,
- from a physics angle,
- with diagrams,
- with links to other websites,
- with other members of this forum,
- with videos and pictures of pro's doing them
Yet these are usless sources of information?
Then you say I have no idea - then say I use personal insults towards you?
Then now your backing up and saying you never said don't to use them yet you say:
quote:
the most useless, overrated exercises
quote:
Cable rows are pretty useless
quote:
just pointless busy work
quote:
definately one of the most inferior back exercises
quote:
cable rows are pretty dire
quote:
there's no alternative to BB rows
quote:
What kind of serious body builder considers cable rows
Actually I think I'll agree with Tony, you are too arrogant to listen... I'm banging my head against a brick wall here.
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 22 2008 22:22:56
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Lord Monkcheese
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnOvManchester
quote:
ORIGINAL: T0NY
John is the diagram above all your own work?
Think your banging your head on a brick wall here.
I thought it would help LOL
I think MuscleQuest is winding us up, but sometimes you just can not help but reply.
Where's lord monkcheese and his graphs... we need a graph or something
I found this on youtube...
John - your chart is far superior to anything I could have knocked up.
This MuscleQuest bloke does seem to be a wind-up merchant who's a bit too keen on the metaphorical sound of his own voice.
His only input is to try to contradict everything you say without providing any basis for debate.
The best advice would be to simply ignore him.
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 25 2008 16:36:00
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BencherRdg
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I agree with John and Cricket et al, but one thing surely that video from coopers guns is showing prtty bad form for a seated cable row isnt it? Unless im missing something?
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 25 2008 19:57:31
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Funkyfresh
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Man, this has to be one of the most pointless debates I've read.
The original topic of this thread was "Building up your Back, What's best?"
Personally, if you are a bodybuilder, then the best thing you can do to build the back is to use a variety. Cable Rows are an awesome exercise IMO as are Barbell Rows, T-Bar Rows, Deadlifts, Chins..etc. the list goes on. They all work.
What's the point in getting into a whole debate about what exercise is "best"? or more effective because surely the best thing you can do is use a mixture. All exercises have their good and bad points and some are more beneficial for certain aspects than others.
It's easy to use your favourite exercises as a crutch. I see guys in the gym all the time doing the same exercises, same weight, same sets, same reps..etc. and they normally always do their strongest/favourite exercises at the start of their workouts.
It's very easy to fall into the head game if you do this because your focus subtly starts to shift from increasing your muscle mass to a comparison of how much weight. This ultimately derails your training--and your progress because you are training the ego more than the muscle.
I know from a powerlifting point of view, the focus is to lift as much weight as possible and this obviously plays a big factor in bodybuilding aswell. But still, even powerlifters need to use a variety in their training.
Whats the point in relying soley on 1 exercise when you have so many available to you?
IMO Don't limit yourself, I say use whatever you have available to you.
I think alot of it is an ego thing personally.
OK, say you walk in the gym and do Cable Rows as your first exercise, sure you won't be able to use as much weight if you put Barbell Rows towards the end of the routine, but that does not mean you don't get anything out of them.
People seem to analyze everything these days. Every exercise works, but none of them work forever.
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 25 2008 21:20:44
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cricket_fire
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Funkyfresh
Man, this has to be one of the most pointless debates I've read.
The original topic of this thread was "Building up your Back, What's best?"
Personally, if you are a bodybuilder, then the best thing you can do to build the back is to use a variety. Cable Rows are an awesome exercise IMO as are Barbell Rows, T-Bar Rows, Deadlifts, Chins..etc. the list goes on. They all work.
What's the point in getting into a whole debate about what exercise is "best"? or more effective because surely the best thing you can do is use a mixture. All exercises have their good and bad points and some are more beneficial for certain aspects than others.
It's easy to use your favourite exercises as a crutch. I see guys in the gym all the time doing the same exercises, same weight, same sets, same reps..etc. and they normally always do their strongest/favourite exercises at the start of their workouts.
It's very easy to fall into the head game if you do this because your focus subtly starts to shift from increasing your muscle mass to a comparison of how much weight. This ultimately derails your training--and your progress because you are training the ego more than the muscle.
I know from a powerlifting point of view, the focus is to lift as much weight as possible and this obviously plays a big factor in bodybuilding aswell. But still, even powerlifters need to use a variety in their training.
Whats the point in relying soley on 1 exercise when you have so many available to you?
IMO Don't limit yourself, I say use whatever you have available to you.
I think alot of it is an ego thing personally.
OK, say you walk in the gym and do Cable Rows as your first exercise, sure you won't be able to use as much weight if you put Barbell Rows towards the end of the routine, but that does not mean you don't get anything out of them.
People seem to analyze everything these days. Every exercise works, but none of them work forever.
Excellent post mate, I agree 100% with this. The point of my arguement wasn't that seated cable rows are the best exercise (I don't feel they are), but that they aren't an inferior/worthless one.
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RE: building up ur back whats best - May 26 2008 18:25:27
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Funkyfresh
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Thanks buddy, glad there are some people who share the same outlook :)
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