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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 14 2008 21:32:33
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WeeMuscle
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Interesting read!
Question on the meal timing and protein pulsing: It says "waiting several hours after a solid food meal is a good time for protein pulsing", but other than upon waking there wont be a time where you have gone that long without food/protein will there?
Or are you suggesting to have a small protein shake of whey before eating your meals? So that can "make use of the rapid rises in blood amino acid/'protein' levels to stimulate muscle growth and recovery" Before your meal later digests and feeds your body for the next couple of hours??
Sorry if im just sounding silly and have misread the article completely 
You refer to the fast digesting proteins being the best. Would whey concentrate be suitable? otherwise getting onto things like hydrolised whey and essential amino acid powder would prove very expensive.
Thanks
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 14 2008 22:11:53
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richsINS
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So how long would david say we should go without a meal for in order for our post workout shake to be effective for night time trainers (6pm).
Should we eat at 2pm, then "fast" untill around ~7pm post workout shake?
Actually this relates to digestion times so i should ask a different question which is "has david researched these with regaurds to this "protein pulsing" subject(since its important we know our bodys not digesting its last protein full meal)"?
Whey upon waking is potentially very good then, what studies is this all based on(any good links/reads?).
Thanks David and James(and whoever else is behind the scenes) 
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 15 2008 0:34:36
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David Barr
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Thanks WM!
It always happens: after an article is published I see the areas in which I should have better clarified the text. Fortunately your questions will help everyone with this.
To answer your question I must emphasize something. I don't have any rules per se, but among the most important principles that I try to impress upon people is the idea that you should ensure that you're never protein fasted. Such a situation is highly catabolic in protein-adapted people.
In practical terms, this means that a protein pulse can be conducted ~3+ hours after a solid food meal.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WeeMuscle
Interesting read!
Question on the meal timing and protein pulsing: It says "waiting several hours after a solid food meal is a good time for protein pulsing", but other than upon waking there wont be a time where you have gone that long without food/protein will there?
This is intriguing. I hadn't considered the possibility of pulsing prior to a solid meal before! Theoretically it should work, but from experience I wouldn't want to consume more than 4 fast protein drinks in one day. Just a preference.
quote:
Or are you suggesting to have a small protein shake of whey before eating your meals? So that can "make use of the rapid rises in blood amino acid/'protein' levels to stimulate muscle growth and recovery" Before your meal later digests and feeds your body for the next couple of hours??/
I agree that such proteins can be cost prohibitive, but whey concentrate should work very well in a protein-fasted state, like the waking protein shake.
quote:
You refer to the fast digesting proteins being the best. Would whey concentrate be suitable? otherwise getting onto things like hydrolised whey and essential amino acid powder would prove very expensive.
Thanks for the questions!
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 15 2008 0:45:03
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David Barr
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richs, thanks for helping me clarify this point about protein fasting. It always depends on the meal and the person, but generally ~3+ hours following a solid meal should be sufficient time in which to stimulate a pulse.
quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
So how long would david say we should go without a meal for in order for our post workout shake to be effective for night time trainers (6pm). Should we eat at 2pm, then "fast" untill around ~7pm post workout shake?
Ideally, it's more related to absorption than digestion, which is why amino acids/small peptides are used. I'm a little surprised by your second question, but I can answer with "I should hope so!" This is all applied theory so we don't have specific studies showing exact detail about every aspect of this. Which leads us to...
quote:
Actually this relates to digestion times so i should ask a different question which is "has david researched these with regaurds to this "protein pulsing" subject(since its important we know our bodys not digesting its last protein full meal)"?
For further reading the Selected References at the end of the article are a good starting point.
I agree that morning protein drinks are a good idea and widely applicable.
quote:
Whey upon waking is potentially very good then, what studies is this all based on(any good links/reads?).
Cheers
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 15 2008 13:57:53
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drewsky
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A good read David, it represents a interesting evolution to high performance type diets.
It's a little off topic but connected to it; I commonly use whey and water which clients upon rising ~15-20 mins before breakfast but often give them the 'full treatment' as it were. What are your views on the use of training nutrition (liquid feeds of 'fast' proteins, carbs and AA's) for 'breakfast' the day after a training session.
I'm a big fan of this protocol in those with high training loads.
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 15 2008 14:01:18
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richsINS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David Barr
I agree that morning protein drinks are a good idea and widely applicable.
quote:
Whey upon waking is potentially very good then, what studies is this all based on(any good links/reads?).
Cheers
So would you say the benifits would be seen in natural atheletes in terms of physical appearence or aiding recovery with regaurd to whey in water(?) upon waking?
Would you add simple carbs to this drink to spike insulin(Dextrose?)?
Are the benifits related to increase protein synthesis only, or is it also its effect on cortisol and other hormones in the morning(that i dont know about  )?
Thanks david.
_____________________________
All my posts reflect my opinion and/or current understanding(which may have errors/be incorrect).
Consistency, Progressive overload & Kcal to suit.
Journal(plus poker)
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 15 2008 21:16:33
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David Barr
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It's always great to have your input Drewsky!
The PWO-enhanced protein sensitivity lasts for at least a day so such a drink would be very well received. I'm a little more conservative than most when it comes to CHO intake, but first thing in the morning they'll greatly help mitigate protein oxidation (waste).
Cheers
quote:
ORIGINAL: drewsky
A good read David, it represents a interesting evolution to high performance type diets.
It's a little off topic but connected to it; I commonly use whey and water which clients upon rising ~15-20 mins before breakfast but often give them the 'full treatment' as it were. What are your views on the use of training nutrition (liquid feeds of 'fast' proteins, carbs and AA's) for 'breakfast' the day after a training session.
I'm a big fan of this protocol in those with high training loads.
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The Anabolic Index is HERE!
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 15 2008 21:23:44
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David Barr
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Yes and yes.
For anyone not on a low carb diet, adding carbs will help minimize the amount of protein that's simply burned off (wasted). Depending on the athlete, I'd use half of a post-workout dose of carbs. Sucrose also works well in the morning because the fructose (structurally, sucrose is half fructose) may help restore liver glycogen (although this is a minor point).
quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
So would you say the benifits would be seen in natural atheletes in terms of physical appearence or aiding recovery with regaurd to whey in water(?) upon waking?
Would you add simple carbs to this drink to spike insulin(Dextrose?)?
Great question. Although I'm not aware of any direct affect of morning protein cortisol levels, the pulse will mitigate the negative effect of the cortisol. In other words, even if cortisol levels remain high, it won't be able to exert its catabolic effects on muscle tissue!
quote:
Are the benifits related to increase protein synthesis only, or is it also its effect on cortisol and other hormones in the morning(that i dont know about )?
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 16 2008 12:13:10
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richsINS
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So for a morning shake i'd use perhaps 15g protein, 30g carbs as my PWO shake is usually 60g carbs(30g dextose + 30g malto) + 30g Whey.
What ratios do you recommend to people for post work out shakes as well? Ive seen alot of people use the opposite to me, a 2:1 of whey:carbs.
Thanks
_____________________________
All my posts reflect my opinion and/or current understanding(which may have errors/be incorrect).
Consistency, Progressive overload & Kcal to suit.
Journal(plus poker)
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 16 2008 14:16:19
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Tony Barnes
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Interesting on the timing front - reminded me of some blurb I read about an amino acid product that was used in a desert run - the runner was having about 40g a day as sole protein source, and gained muscle mass during this run. Just been looking for it, but the company I thought did it doesn't seem to be promoting it anymore?? Will try and remember to find it some time.
As whey alone will elicit an insulin response, I don't see the need for simple carbs?
I'll probably make up another batch of hydrolysed whey at home - cheap whey + water + enzymes + silver colloid = cheap hydrolysed whey lasting in the fridge for ages - according to this, good to just have through the day...
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 16 2008 15:44:36
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Tony Barnes
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Hydrolysed whey is whey broken down into amino acids via hydrolysis (or at least far smaller chunks) - easy enough to do this is with digestive enzymes, as that is one of their fundamental functions. Chuck in some silver colloid to prevent bacterial growth, and jobs a good 'un, cheap hydrolysed whey.
The only issue is knowing how hydrolysed it is - but as enzymes do not "run out", they keep converting substrate, if you leave it all together at room temperature for a day or so (to keep the reaction rate decent) before sticking in fridge, it should all be broken down into amino acids, possibly more so than the stuff you buy (a quick look around hints at 20% being the limit, partially due to taste - I can confirm it's not nice when made the way I do it!!!)
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 16 2008 16:03:15
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Arif
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Is it any digestive enzymes from the shop? Which do you use? I might give it a go.
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 16 2008 16:34:35
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Tony Barnes
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I use the ones we sell, lol! There are lots of brands out there - in honesty, ours aren't cheap, but they are excellent. Whichever one you go for, aim for decent amounts of protein digesting enzymes - proteases & bromelain
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 17 2008 18:13:41
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David Barr
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In my experience most non-athletes overcarb after lifting. Resistance training just doesn't deplete muscle glycogen enough to warrant PWO carb intakes that are based off of cardio athletes.
1:1 is plenty if pre and PWO meals are used.
quote:
ORIGINAL: richsINS
So for a morning shake i'd use perhaps 15g protein, 30g carbs as my PWO shake is usually 60g carbs(30g dextose + 30g malto) + 30g Whey.
What ratios do you recommend to people for post work out shakes as well? Ive seen alot of people use the opposite to me, a 2:1 of whey:carbs.
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 17 2008 18:18:22
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David Barr
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Great post Tony.
I agree about whey and insulin, especially with all of the over-carb recommendations out there. That said, I prefer to use carbs with whey pre-workout because this should elicit a larger insulin response = more blood flow. Now I don't have any direct data on this, simply reasoning. [damn, now I'm going to be obsessed with finding some]
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tony Barnes
As whey alone will elicit an insulin response, I don't see the need for simple carbs?
Brilliant idea! I've never even considered this.
quote:
I'll probably make up another batch of hydrolysed whey at home - cheap whey + water + enzymes + silver colloid = cheap hydrolysed whey lasting in the fridge for ages - according to this, good to just have through the day...
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 17 2008 19:51:20
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Arif
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tony Barnes
I use the ones we sell, lol! There are lots of brands out there - in honesty, ours aren't cheap, but they are excellent. Whichever one you go for, aim for decent amounts of protein digesting enzymes - proteases & bromelain
Not trying to overtake this thread but have to ask another question on this.
In what dosages should proteases and bromelin be used?
Can any brand of them be used?
I can find the bromelain on its own but proteases seems to come in a package with other enzymes. Ive also found alot come in caps, Dont they need to be in the fridge?
< Message edited by Arif -- May 17 2008 19:52:38 >
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 18 2008 11:51:05
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Tony Barnes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: David Barr
Great post Tony.
I agree about whey and insulin, especially with all of the over-carb recommendations out there. That said, I prefer to use carbs with whey pre-workout because this should elicit a larger insulin response = more blood flow. Now I don't have any direct data on this, simply reasoning. [damn, now I'm going to be obsessed with finding some]
Would blood flow be able to be increased beyond what the exercise stimulus would generate anyway? If this is a main reason could it be swapped out for say niacin? No idea how ideal that would be with every training session though. Can see what you're thinking though
quote:
ORIGINAL: David Barr
Brilliant idea! I've never even considered this.
Hah, thanks, I try 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arif
Not trying to overtake this thread but have to ask another question on this.
In what dosages should proteases and bromelin be used?
Can any brand of them be used?
I can find the bromelain on its own but proteases seems to come in a package with other enzymes. Ive also found alot come in caps, Dont they need to be in the fridge?
I'm not positive how completely bromelain alone digests proteins - will have a look through some stuff tomorrow if I remember. As you're only concerned with digesting whey in water, the type probably doesn't matter that much. Capsules is fine - just break them open and pour in, that's all I do. No, ambient storage is fine, the enzymes won't breakdown or anything like that.
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RE: Article - Optimizing Your Muscle Growth & Fat Loss ... - May 18 2008 14:11:38
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muscl3s
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i was advised by a strength coach to have a pre workout protein and carb drink to fuel the workout and that there is not much need for a post workout drink if you do this. what are your views on pre vs post workout drinks?
another thing he mentioned was that with time, the body adapts to high levels of protein, making the protein less effective. to overcome this, he advised having only one large protein meal a day (preferably before a workout), therefore shocking the body.
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