I'm only taking carbs for breakfast and pre-workout and I've lost a decent amount of fat, but I'm tempted to do a full blown ketosis diet to kick start fat loss again.

Does this kind of diet work? Is there a big risk of muscle loss?

I reckon I'd have a re-feed on Sundays and have about 300g carbs.

Before and after cutting pics

Brittas's Journal

You may as well just follow the anabolic diet if you're thinking about ketosis mate.

No more than 30g carbs for 5 days, then carb up for 1-2 days, then another 5 days no carb. Ketogenic diets are very catabolic as your body apparently burns muscle for energy when in ketosis.

However, on the anabolic diet you do not enter a state of ketosis. Your body adapts to burning fat for fuel, so all you do is lower your cals slightly and it directly burns body fat for energy. You fill up your glycogen stores at the weekend (taking in around 1000g carbs) to fuel your workouts for the week.

Oh yeah, and you get to eat bacon

I'm a wizard of the word, that's what you heard
And anything else is quite absurd

So whats the basic protocol for the anabolic diet?

Before and after cutting pics

Brittas's Journal

ORIGINAL: brittas

So whats the basic protocol for the anabolic diet?

You'd do well by buying the ebook TBH mate. Quite a lot to explain. This webpage has a wealth of info: http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet/

I'm a wizard of the word, that's what you heard
And anything else is quite absurd

ORIGINAL: AlasTTTair

You may as well just follow the anabolic diet if you're thinking about ketosis mate.

Not if he wants to train mon/wed/friday or whatever fits his schedule.

ORIGINAL: AlasTTTair
Ketogenic diets are very catabolic as your body apparently burns muscle for energy when in ketosis.

High protein can help spare muscle, then after the first few weeks it should be fine.

ORIGINAL: AlasTTTair
However, on the anabolic diet you do not enter a state of ketosis.

Lol, i read the anabolic diet book - I'd love to know how he claims 'we avoid ketosis' on 30g carbs a day.
Look at the structure of the diet, compare it to a ketogenic diet.


"Low carbs" Check.
"Protein eaten" check.
"High fat intake" Check.

Hmmm he must have super powers!

I also like the whole "I dont sell supplements"..... "oh ive been working with a supplement company, here buy this".


Brittas -I'd recommend you read Lyle mcdonalds Ketogenic diet book, a tonne of great info in that and answers prett much every question.
Dont buy the anabolic diet book

My posts are all my opinion and based on current knowledge/understanding.

Thanks for the info guys.

Is there anyone out there's who's actually tried it?

Ketosis I mean?

Before and after cutting pics

Brittas's Journal

Hi Mate

I'm a diabetes specialist for a living - avoid the Ketosis approach at all costs, a Ketotic coma is not the kind of thing you want to experience, many diabetics die every year because of it....doing this to your body is NOT smart - do something else mate
S.

October, trees are stripped bare of all they wear...what do i care.

spencerslide, diabetic ketoacidosis is not the same thing as dietary ketosis. The presence of insulin limits serum ketones to a level where there is no acidosis. I would strongly recommend that you read Lyle McDonald's book "The Ketogenic Diet" for a full understanding of ketosis in people who don't have untreated type 1 diabetes.

EDIT: See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=stryer.section.4355
Ketosis is like starvation but with adequate dietary protein to supply AAs for gluconeogenesis.

P.S. People with type 1 diabetes can and do live perfectly well on low carbohydrate diets. See http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/ and http://www.survivediabetes.com/

Eggs Article
Fats Article
My MySpace page with e-book and much, much more
Where are the Omega-3 fats?

Rightyho follows a ketosis diet I believe, or has been for a while. I suggest you ask him, a very useful and helpful chap.

Nig - yer absolutely right, wasnt aware of the K-diet, made an association and freaked, watched a young lady die abusing her insulin to stay in shape....not a pretty path to follow.

I also work on DAFNE and DESMOND carb projects with consultant and nurse teams...perhaps also useful for bodybuilders?
S.

October, trees are stripped bare of all they wear...what do i care.

ORIGINAL: spencerslide

Hi Mate

I'm a diabetes specialist for a living - avoid the Ketosis approach at all costs, a Ketotic coma is not the kind of thing you want to experience, many diabetics die every year because of it....doing this to your body is NOT smart - do something else mate
S.

An acidosis-induced coma won't affect someone with normal insulin secretion mate.

MT all-round Member of the Year 2006 and 2007

Now at Undergroundmuscle.co.uk

ORIGINAL: CJW

Rightyho follows a ketosis diet I believe, or has been for a while. I suggest you ask him, a very useful and helpful chap.

No. he's a w4nker.

The reply is here: http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/m_1421825/mpage_153/tm.htm
Post 3054.

MT all-round Member of the Year 2006 and 2007

Now at Undergroundmuscle.co.uk

ORIGINAL: AlasTTTair

You may as well just follow the anabolic diet if you're thinking about ketosis mate.

Not as effective.

No more than 30g carbs for 5 days, then carb up for 1-2 days, then another 5 days no carb. Ketogenic diets are very catabolic as your body apparently burns muscle for energy when in ketosis.

keto diets are far from catabolic when cardio is correctly mediated.
You have a single carb meal weekly (maybe two in tandem), not 2 days of carbing up. That's old-school and proven not to be overly effective.

Oh yeah, and you get to eat bacon

Not on a new millenium keto diet, you don't - you get to eat clean-burning fats, EFAs, EPAs etc.

MT all-round Member of the Year 2006 and 2007

Now at Undergroundmuscle.co.uk

ORIGINAL: brittas

Thanks for the info guys.

Is there anyone out there's who's actually tried it?

Ketosis I mean?

Yes, I use it pre-contest: works really well for me, never lost muscle, actually I put more size on!

Can't see why you would loose muscle if you train hard enough & your protein intake is high...

Check my new website:
http://www.malikazitouni.co.uk/

Sponsored by:
http://www.extremenutrition.co.uk/

Ok, so if I remove carbs altogether, and I have a re-feed once a week.... what should it look like?

How much carbs roughly? Righty suggests 1 or 2 carb meals further up the thread but I thought I'd have a full day and take 300g's of carbs or something?

Also, when skipping carbs should fats be high?

Before and after cutting pics

Brittas's Journal

could you get away with not doing a refeed? do you HAVE to refeed? or is it just for those who find this type of dieting hard and need a "mental break"

ORIGINAL: HydroMaf

could you get away with not doing a refeed? do you HAVE to refeed? or is it just for those who find this type of dieting hard and need a "mental break"

A refeed is more for mental sanity in the early stages but essential for continued thyroid function (if not supplementing with T3) and for mediating leptin levels, both of which dictate the rate of fatloss, in the latter stages.

brittas - you don't need a full refeed day - it's detrimental to progress. 3 x 100g carb up meals as I just outlined in my journal is MORE than sufficient.
There is a strict protocol to this if you want to keep water rebound and headfcuk to a minimum.

MT all-round Member of the Year 2006 and 2007

Now at Undergroundmuscle.co.uk

Hi Brittas

Just replying to your invite to post here regarding the low carb diet I’ve used in the past. Sorry for the delay, I’ve been away. I can see you’ve had some pretty solid advice already particularly by Rightyho in his thread.

By the way sorry everyone this post seems to have become a lot longer than I intended.

I have not followed Rightyho’s protocol and I can see right off that the protocol I’ve followed is the one he has told you to avoid, namely with a full day plus re-feed. So this shouldn’t be taken in anyway as me disagreeing with him, he certainly seems to know his stuff but I can only comment upon the diet I have followed and the results I’ve got. I’d be interested to read more about Rightyho’s protocol and try it myself to see how I respond.

I can see two books have been mentioned I’ve only scanned over the Anabolic diet so can’t really comment but I would second Lyle McDonland’s books. His keto diet book has been mentioned and I’d also recommend that you have a look at his Ultimate Diet 2 book which changed the way in which I approached low carb diets, and also structures the weight training around the diet. Anyone who’s read UD2 will recognise the following so I can’t take the credit.

Monday to Wednesday: 50g carbs, 250 protein and 40g fat. All carbs from vegetables. This period effectively a protein sparing modified fast, removing all that is not necessary from your diet namely carbs and non-essential fats (or reducing them as much as possible).This would work out at nearly ½ of my maintenance cals at just over 1500 cals. On Monday and Tuesday a full body workout to assist with glycogen depletion: 6 x 15 reps of 1 exercise per body part. Wednesday off.

Thursday pre training following above protocol and then start carb up following a full body workout: medium sets and reps. I also take around 15 grams of protein and 1-2 pieces of fruit before the workout.

Friday continue carb up. I aim for 1000g over this period split to approx 300g on Thursday evening and 700g through Friday. I use high GI carbs early on and move onto lower GI carbs on Friday. I was surprised when I first read this but apparently when glycogen is depleted carbs will go into glycogen synthesis first until glycogen is returned to normal.

Saturday I take some carbs around my morning workout (Full body, heavy weight with low reps), but then move back into low carb Saturday evening and through Sunday.

In all honestly I’ve probably naturally moved towards the protocol Rightyho has suggested in that I have reduced my carbs on Saturday and Sunday as I’ve found that I didn’t lose muscle, and found I could easily gain muscle if I had a prolonged carb load. I was concerned with catabolism but I found I was able to continue to lower the amount of carbs I was having over the weekend and do not consider it affected any noticeable muscle loss. So I now move back to low carb Saturday evening and through Sunday. When experimented with more carbs on Saturday and Sunday a feel I gained muscle but did not gain any fat. I use Saturday morning to evaluate how the week has gone by weighing, measuring and using a mirror. I may try modifying this diet for a lean bulk in the future.

I’ve been happy with the results and not consider I lost much muscle if any at all. To give you some stats if you average 1500 cal deficit p/d over 5 days you may be looking at 2lb fat loss per week. 1000 cal deficit would be closer to 1.5 lb fat. This is looking at it simplistically and I’ve not factored in the carb up day(s). But in practice this is the fat loss I’ve experienced on this diet with no noticeable muscle loss. So all in all I’ve been pleased with the results. The times I’ve tried this diet I decided to do it natural without support as I wanted to test how I responded to this protocol. I was never a fan of full body workouts but I can see the logic in this diet particularly around the re-feeds

Rightyho do you have any links for the protocol you use as I wouldn’t mind having a look? I’ve read that 5 hours refeeds of carbs would raise leptin levels which would fit seem to fit in with what you’ve suggested. Would you recommend this protocol for someone who is training naturally without assistance?

Finally I’m back on this protocol at the moment, and I’m happy how it’s going.

Brittas I’d be interested hear how you get on

^^^^ id be intersted to see how you get on, Brittas, why not start a jounal to see how you get on?:D]

 

ORIGINAL: richsINS

ORIGINAL: AlasTTTair
However, on the anabolic diet you do not enter a state of ketosis.

Lol, i read the anabolic diet book - I'd love to know how he claims 'we avoid ketosis' on 30g carbs a day.
Look at the structure of the diet, compare it to a ketogenic diet.


"Low carbs" Check.
"Protein eaten" check.
"High fat intake" Check.

Hmmm he must have super powers!

You missed one:

"Body producing ketones for energy" nope

I'm a wizard of the word, that's what you heard
And anything else is quite absurd