Hey

Im trying to get more muscle and reduce my body fat %. Trying to get a much tighter 6pack and bigger biceps.

I play alot of football however, and i do alot of cardio training. I have read alot that if i want to bulk up never to do cardio, but i also read on the internet on a few sites that if I want to do both i should only do cardio after doing weight training. Im guessing this prevents muscles from being broken down and only breaks down fat?

My running routine is usually 1 day uphill jogging with rests between 400m, and the next day doing flat ground jogging for 20-30 mins.

Is it possible to bulk up my biceps and abs while still playing football and doing running most days?

lyle Mcdonald
Gaining muscle while losing fat: The Newbie effect

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Ok, since this seems to come up with some regularity, here are my thoughts on it. I had made a post to mfw a long time bck but it's faster to just retype it here than try to dig through google groups.

The basic question that continues to come up is "How come newbies can gain muscle and lose fat but more advanced guys can't."

First and foremost, I want to point out that only fat newbies can accomplish this, lean guys are not going to lean out significantly while gaining muscle. And I think this points us partly in the right direction.

Way back when, when I first got on the track of leptin (oh, about 98 I think), a lot of what leptin was doing (and note that leptin is related to bodyfat levels) seemed to explain at least part of this. Leptin turned out to be the big missing middle puzzle piece that I"d been looking for for about 10 years.

So consider a fat untrained individual. Because of all of the bodyfat they are carrying, there are a bunch of adapations that have occurred which, given the right stimulus, is going to make them *more effectively* mobilize fat for fuel. I know I"ve discussed this before but now expect a zillion and one questions.

But when you look at that actual adaptations in terms of whole body (especially fat cell) insulin resistance, it's clear that they occur in an attempt to limit further fat gain/help with fat loss once the excess calories are removed. The fat cells are resistant to insulin (meaning insulin can't be anti-lipolytic) leptin would be limiting food intake if the brain weren't resistant, leptin is trying to push fatty acid oxidation (except that muscle is alos resistant), there are tons of fatty acids n the bloodstream just waiting to be burned, &c. So even in the face of high insulin or whatever, fatty acids can be mobilize for fuel.

Read that last sentence again, especially given the role of insulin in muscle growth.

So I think that's the first part of the story. The body is primed to use a lot of fat for fuel under those conditions. Going back to 98, this is actually what led me to leptin, trying to figure out why fatter people can lose fat with less LBM loss compared to lean. So I started looking at the differences physiologically in fat people vs. lean people. And kept coming back to leptin (which I'd been deliberately ignoring for years). Which turns out to be part (but certainly not the entire picture). But I digress.

But it's not the whole story. The other part of it and at this point I get way off into speculation land I think has to do with being relatively more untrained. Everybody knows that beginners respond better to training than anybody else. Primarily because they are so far from their genetic potential. They have more 'room to grow' to put it one way. This is true of everything, first year of any training is when you will make the most massive gains, unless you're training is retarded. And as you get closer to your genetic limits, things start to level off and you reach an asymptote.

And I think that the two factors together are what allow it to happen.

You're in a situation where
a. muscle can be gained quite easily
b. fat can be lost quite easily

Because both are so far below (in the case of muscle) or above (in the case of fat) genetic limits. That's on top of all the hormonal/energetic stuff going on when you're fat. The body is trying to push fatty acids away from storage and towards fat oxidation, even in the face of a relatively anabolic hormonal state.

But a fat but trained individual doesn't have both factors going no. They may have plenty of fat to lose but they don't have a ton of muscle to gain. No newbie effect.

A semi-lean but muscular individual has to drop insulin to mobilize/burn fat for fuel at any effective rate. Which limits their anabolic potential (and this is ignoring all of the stuff going on in the muscle with AMPk and protien synthesis and all that crap). They can lose fat but they can't gain muscle at the same time.

And, in a muscle gaining mode, you're in a net anabolic state anyhow. You can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time for the most part.

Now quit asking me about this.

ORIGINAL: Silva

Im trying to get more muscle and reduce my body fat %. Trying to get a much tighter 6pack and bigger biceps. I play alot of football however, and i do alot of cardio training. I have read alot that if i want to bulk up never to do cardio, but i also read on the internet on a few sites that if I want to do both i should only do cardio after doing weight training. Im guessing this prevents muscles from being broken down and only breaks down fat? My running routine is usually 1 day uphill jogging with rests between 400m, and the next day doing flat ground jogging for 20-30 mins.

Well you'll only gain muscle at a certain rate, and you already do a lot of aerobics anyhow, so I don't think much tweaking would be done. You're already doing a lot to gain muscle and lose bodyfat. However your exercise routine might be tweaked a little bit, such as set and rep range, exercises done.

ORIGINAL: Silva

Is it possible to bulk up my biceps and abs while still playing football and doing running most days?

You can get stronger and build for more hypertrophy, but just don't expect big gains quickly, considering you're already in good physical shape and have been doing strength training and endurance. You're past the beginner stage in either endeavor, I bet.

Here's what I recommend. Post your exercise routine here. For example, which exercises used, and number of sets and reps for each. As well as what days you perform them. Some of the pros here might have an idea on how to help you.

Trying to get a much tighter 6pack and bigger biceps.

i think you need to decide to bulk or cut... its not easy to gain size on arms and get a tight six pack.

Train Hard Or Go Home

Hey,

I tried to write out my routine, im sure it can be alot more efficient so i would appreciate any feedback. My guess is that it will be alot more benificial for me if i cut out all of my cardio stuff, i only do this to keep fit for football and for fun, not to loose fat.

Thanks

Monday

Dumbbells
Bicept Curls 3x12
Triceps Kick-Back 3x15
Upright Row 3x12
Lateral Dumbbell Raise 3x12
Front Dumbbell Raise 3x12
Hammer Curl 3x12
Triceps Single Arm Extension 3x12
Dumbbell Pullover 3x15
Dumbbell Fly 3x15
Dumbbell Bench Press 3x15

Couch
Knee Ups 3x20
Leg Raises 3x20
Cycles 3x20

Reverse Crunch 3x20
Leg on Couch crunches 3x20
Hip Thrusts 3x20

Cross Crunch 3x20
Cross Crunch reach and touch 3x20
Cross leg reverse crunch 3x20

Cardio
20-30 Minute run


Tuesday

Cardio
10 x 400m steep hill jogs

Pushup (Single Arm) 3x15
Pushup (Close Grip) 3x30


Wednesday

Cardio Warm-up
Football Match


Thursday

Legs
Squats 1x60
Lunch 3x30
Calf Raise 3x30

Friday

Dumbbells
Bicept Curls 3x12
Triceps Kick-Back 3x15
Upright Row 3x12
Lateral Dumbbell Raise 3x12
Front Dumbbell Raise 3x12
Hammer Curl 3x12
Triceps Single Arm Extension 3x12
Dumbbell Pullover 3x15
Dumbbell Fly 3x15
Dumbbell Bench Press 3x15

Couch
Knee Ups 3x20
Leg Raises 3x20
Cycles 3x20

Reverse Crunch 3x20
Leg on Couch crunches 3x20
Hip Thrusts 3x20

Cross Crunch 3x20
Cross Crunch reach and touch 3x20
Cross leg reverse crunch 3x20

Cardio
20-30 Minute run

Saturday

Rest

Sunday

Cardio
Football Training

for bulking up thats got to be one of the worst routines ever posted,sorry it just is

ORIGINAL: Silva

Hey, I tried to write out my routine, im sure it can be alot more efficient so i would appreciate any feedback. My guess is that it will be alot more benificial for me if i cut out all of my cardio stuff, i only do this to keep fit for football and for fun, not to loose fat. Thanks

Looks more like an endurance regimen - nothing wrong with that, but it's not a bulking up routine.

I think cardio routine is probably fine. It's just the rep ranges on your exercises. I think they should best be in the 8-12rep range for the most size.

Try this: Change all the rep levels to 10, and set the percentage of your 1 rep max to about 75%. Keep the same number of sets and exercises, and just see what that does for you. You are still doing a fair bit of isolations, and not enough compounds. I don't see any overhead press or lat pulldown/pullup varations. I don't see deadlifts. You're doing dumbell presses instead of barbell presses (not neccessarily bad) and you're putting too many exercises in there. If you are doing presses you don't need to do pushups.

I think you're doing just too much arm work, and not enough for the rest of your body. You should more evenly distribute the load between all your body parts. Vince Gironda once said to love your body parts equally, and to train them equally. I think you're lacking in size because of a) too much endurance weight training and b) focusing too much emphasis on certain body parts, at the expense of others.

You're definitely reducing body fat, but you're not remotely bulking up because of the sheer volume of endurance work you do. I envy your stamina levels.

Anyhow, keep the cardio, reduce the number of exercises that overlap with each other (variations of the same exercise), and increase the weight and lower the number of reps per set. Try that for a week and see how that works for you, in terms of feeling. Obviously if it's something you like, you won't see results immediately, but it should put on some mass and make you stronger.

Welcome to the forum mate. The first correct thing you did is join here!! There's no strict right way to do things. Plenty of opinions and a general gist in a direction, as to what may work. People are different, so to a degree, trial and error is a must.

This place as an overwhelming level of knowledge, from n00bs to competent trainers to qualified people and professional competitors.

To grow your arms, you have to grow your whole body. You need to get a routine sorted that works around some decent compound exercises and perhaps add a couple isolation exercises. Compounds work muscle groups, are generally tougher to do and will give you the most benefit. Isolations aim to target specific muscles. There's a good arguement for not even touching an isolation exercise for a couple years, but as I said, plenty of different schools of thought.

A good base to start for you would be working the concept of 'push', 'pull', 'legs'. The idea being you get a complete work out over three seperate sessions in a week, minimising working the same muscle groups in the week as much as possible.

Pull exercises are those that require a pulling motion. You also time your breathing to exhale with the pull. Deadlifts, wide grip chins, bent over rows, bicep curls are examples of these. They work your back and biceps. A good Monday session

Push exercises, going on what's established from pull, require exertion on the pull part of the exercise, exhaling on the push part of the rep. Bench, shoulder press, military press, dips are examples of these. Works your chest, shoulders and triceps.

Legs is self explanatory, though the routine should be built around squats.

Your diet will determine the amount of body fat you accumulate to a degree. Though you have to break eggs to make omlettes is a good analogy. Eat Monitor Adjust is another. If you find you're short of energy when training, typified by yawning and poor performance, then eat more. If you find you're putting on too much body fat, eat less. You can get as involved as you want with your diet, though you'll need to take on lots of protein. Fresh fruit and veg is a must with the increase in meats you'll experience.

As far as cardio goes, essential to keep your heart happy. Easiest thing to do is not to run on a weights day.

I've tried to explain a few things as simply as possible, as ambiguously as possible to give you some pointers. Explore the forum, ask questions, get answers and learn mate.

The worst thing you could do on here is not to take advice you have been given. If you still believe you can just build gunz n abz in a Men's Health fashion, you'll not only get shot down, but you'll be wasting your time and those around you who take the time to try and help. It's just not going to happen.

Best of luck, don't be a hard learner!!!

"If you're going through hell, keep going!" - Winston Churchill

ORIGINAL: stavross

Smith machines are for girls mate.

If you wanna bulk - Lift heavy - 5 x 5 3 day split will do the trick as long as your diet is right.
good luck.

"Todays preparation determines tomorrow's achievement."