I found this post (from another forum) to be quite interesting. Have a read. Any thoughts on this would be welcome.






SHORT CYCLES good gains-less sides

REALGAINS
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As many of you already know I have had decent success with short cycles. I, along with some of my friends and clients, have had good results with cycles as short as 14 days long.

I no longer do cycles longer than 4-6 weeks as I am simply sick of the sides that build up after 4-6 weeks and I no longer feel comfortable walking around with a ****ty lipid profile for months on end.


WHAT QUALIFIES AS SHORT

"In my book" any cycle 6 weeks or less is a short cycle. Personally I now think that 4 weekers give the best gains to sides ratio.

You can do 2 weeks "on" 2-4 weeks "off"
You can do 4 weeks on and 4-6 weeks off
Or you can do 6 weeks on with 6-8 weeks off.
4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, year round, gives excellent results and you are only "on" half the year.

WHY DO THEM

#1.
If you are one of those bro's that does longer cycles, of say 10-12 weeks or more, and then wisely takes an equal amount of time off, and you are tired of loosing so much of your gains post cycle due to the length of the time off...the yoyo affect....then why not try doing shorter cycles with their corresponding shorter off times...... obviously you don't gain as much with a short cycle but then again you don't loose as much post cycle either due to the shorter off time.

Now... over say a year of doing 4 on 4-6 off you are gong to get very similar results as that seen from doing longer cycles of say 12 "on" 12-14 off but with less yo-yo affect and less sides. In fact most of my clients that do 4-6 week cycles tell me that they are actually getting better gains over a years use.

#2.
Do them to have less of a negative impact on ones lipid profile and to have less total time per year with a poor lipid profile.

Some of you may not know that androgens, taken at even newbie bodybuilding doses, alter everyones lipid profile. Everyone sees their hdl(good cholesterol) take a huge "nosedive" and most also see their ldl(bad cholesterol) go up to some degree but not to the same degree that hdl decreases. Generally hdl decreases 40-70% in as little as 2 weeks and ldl increases an average of 36% in 4 weeks. In my experience this reduction in hdl puts all bro's hdl WELL below the pathological minimum of 35. My ldl does not elevate above the pathological level of 160 but others see ldl's well above 160.
Lipid levels typically normalize within 3-10 weeks after discontinuation.
( details taken from article in Medscape)

Here are my "numbers" from the last long cycle of test 750mg/week and tren 75mg/day. A powerful stack but not a huge dose of gear. It's been as bad with less powerful gear and lower doses. Blood work done after week 7.

Total cholesterol 181...not bad.
ldl 160...not very good
hdl 11.6! CRAPPY big time
Cholesterol to hdl ratio 15.7 to 1...ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE! This is when my doc and I had a COW at the same time.
Triglycerides 50...good.

Here is my "baseline" without gear

Chol 152...great
ldl 106...great
hdl 45-48...good
tri 50..good
chol to hdl ratio....3.16 to 1.....good

.As far as I and my endochrinologist are concerned this lipid altering side of gear use is the single worst side of steroid use.
In as little as a week hdl decreases. Personally my brother-in-law and I really see a huge decrease after about 3 weeks "on' cycle. The last time I did a long cycle my total cholesterol to hdl ratio plummeted to 15 to 1!...My doc had a cow and so did I!!

According to current medical thought ones total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the single greatest LIPID indicator for assessing ones chances of developing heart disease. Men with low total cholesterols but with crappy hdl have gone on to develope heart disease WITHOUT ANY OTHER RISK FACTORS such as smoking, or diabetes.

Ideally you want an hdl of at least 40 and a ratio of 3.5 to 1 or better.

My mentor, the late great MIKE MENTZER died of heart disease at age 50 and I know for a fact that ARNOLD had more than valve surgery(I am an operating room nurse as well as a trainer)


#3.
Do them to decrease liver stress.
Generally long cycles with non 17aa roids are not that hard on the liver but sometimes one can get into trouble. The short cycle allows for less total stress on the liver and the frequent "off" times allows the liver to regenerate very well.
Generally a healthy liver can take pretty big "hits" for short periods of time without any problem ...it is long term stress that cause liver damage(as seen with elevated GGT enzyme levels)

#4.
Do them if you want to "tone down" your use of steroids.

#5.
Do them if you do NOT want to use HCG during a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. HPTA shut down will be complete in as little as a week "on" but testicualr atrophy is minimal due to the short length of this shut down. This then allows for better HPTA recovery post cycle.
It is small testes that makes HPTA recovery slow because GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH from the pituitary normally rebound pretty rapidly.
* There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

You certainly can use hcg while on any short cycle to prevent any testicular shrinkage if you like but it really isn't necessary.

#6.
Do them if you do not want to see much in the way of water retention and do not want to use an estrogen inhibitor or an ace inhibitor(diuretic)


#7.
Do them if you get high blood pressure and do not wish to use the above mentioned ancillaries.

#8. Do them if you are sick of androgenic sides such as ance, prostate hypertrophy and hair loss(if prone to hair loss) etc etc.
Androgen sides come on for two reason...dose used and especially length of time "on". I do not get acne until after 4 weeks on and then I get hammered.....and I hate it.

#9.
Do them if you are tired of walking around with high estrogen levels for months on end and do not wish to or cannot afford to use an estrogen inhibitor. High estrogen levels are NOT good for the prostate at all!

You certainly can use estrogen inhibitors if you like if you want to keep estrogen levels down and experience very little water retention.


WHY NOT TO DO THEM

Obviously if you compete at a high level then short cycles are probably not the best for you, BUT I think they are the best way to use steroids for the vast majority of bro's.
Top competitors need to be "on" either all the time or most of the time....thats unfortunate but usually necessary in order to get freaky huge which is now needed to win big.


WHAT TO EXPECT

If one is not yet at ones natural maximum level of muscular developement then very good gains can be seen of up to 15 pounds and 10 pounds kept after a 4 weeker...as long as you train correctly as a natural post cycle.

If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.

Those that are off cycle and have not yet shrunk down to their natural max can still gain well with successive short cycles but don't expect to win at the national level.

One of the things I like about short cycles is the short time "off" between cycles.......muscular atrophy is minimal during the off time and you are allowing for frequent bodily normalization after minimal time "on". LESS SIDES IN GENERAL, LESS TIME WITH A ****TY LIPID PROFILE and LESS MUSCLE LOSS POST CYCLE.

NOTE: You cannot get "freaky big" in this way...that takes very big doses and spending most of the year, for years on end, on steroids as well as GH and slin, and that my freinds is simply not a good idea unless you plan to make your living as a bodybuilder.

Getting pretty darn big in small steps is a safer way to use gear IMHO...and it messes less with one head too. Some guys really get depressed during "off" times of 12 or more weeks waiting to start their next cycle.


GEAR CHOICE and RATIONAL

The idea behind short cycles is to "get in" quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides. So with this in mind one should only use orals and rapid acting/clearing injectables. The limited time "on' simply doesn't justify the use of the "slower" esterfied injectables like deca etc. Also, these same roids take too long to clear the system and that too goes against the philosophy of short cycles.

The gear choosen should be powerful for best results and doses need to be decent as well in order to get the most from the short time on.
You can use mild gear like anavar but your results will be reduced.

BEST Gear

d-bol
test prop
tren
anadrol

BEST stacks.

Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat. There is only one roid that is better than testosterone, in the short run, IMHO and that is d-bol...too bad it's 17aa.

Test prop/tren
Test prop/tren/winny
Test prop/anadrol
Test prop/d-bol


STACKS AND DOSE EXAMPLES

I like tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth).

Some guys think I am nuts for recommending tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an estrogen inhibitor....and **** test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than tren.

The only issue with tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)


Novice... TREN/D-BOL....

Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.
Two days after last tren do clomid at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.
Have nolva or clomid on hand for gyno protection.

More advanced...200 of tren on day one as a front load to get tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above

Novice...TEST PROP/TREN

Test prop 75mg/day for 4 weeks and tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks. Serms as above. Nolva on hand.

more advanced.....Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-200mg/day for 4 weeks. Tren 75mg/day. An estrogen inhibitor might be needed.

MEGA STACK... ADVANCED
Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100mg /day for 4 weeks, d-bol 50mg/day and tren 75mg/day......LOOK THE HELL OUT! Have the nolva on the tip of your tongue he he he ...arimidex at 1-1.5mg/day would be wise even for the short 4 week period.

SINGLE STEROIDS

D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.
One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks. Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the liver.
D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite cycle length in the old days and produced excellent gains.

Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.



OKAY.....BUT YOU SAY YOU ONLY HAVE SUST, EQ, CYP etc

Long chain esterfied roids and tests are not the best choice for the shorty, as explained above, but they can work pretty well IF you do pretty large front loads. FRONT LOADS simply help to get blood hormone levels up more quickly.

ie: Intermediate user doing test cyp ...do a FRONT LOAD of at least 800mg on day one...then 2 days latter do 400mg and then every 4h day do another 400.
400 every 4th day is equal to 700mg per week.

Run the cyp for 4-6 weeks and you'll get some decent gains from it.

* Best to use tren with this cycle....or d-bol (1 mg of arimidex/day if using d-bol and test)

* After the last shot of cyp you are going to have to wait for a couple weeks for androgen levels to drop before you start PCT and this is akin to lengthening the cycle.



BLOOD LIPIDS

You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!
Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers. Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.
Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.


Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your ****ty hdl level.
NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the liver so never use it with acutane which is hard on the liver. You really should have liver panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

ENTER POLICOSANOL

DrVeejay11(real doctor) introduced me to another great lipid protector/improver and it too raises hdl BUT BONUS...it lowers ldl too.. and it's not liver toxic at all so you could use this stuff all the time with no worries.
Do a search at www.medscape.com for abstracts on POLICOSANOL.


I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially liver panels... and psa for us older guys) And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.


Best of gains and health to you all.

RG

DrVeejay11

yeah he realy knows his stuff

nice artical mate and i am one who loves short cycles

www.kvos.co.uk
Your Virtual Assistant

i also have something on shortcycles on another pc,
if it dont repeat what you have put up ,ill paste that also.
great post mate.
good reading :)

i like that alot

i think short cycles is a good idea aswell. however, in those first enitial cycles where u want to pack on as much mass as possible are 10 weekers not better? the reason i say this is that many people i have spoken to agree that recovery from your first few cycles is good, and cycles later on is wen recovery becomes harder, so shorter cycles cood be the way to go then. but if you want as much mass as possible, longer cycles must be beter than shorter.

Short cycles is for the patient...long for the impatient...

I think until you're a certain level short cyles are great, and then if you do want to take it further, you'll have to do long cyclews with high doses.

I think as well that in later stages when people have problems it is because of their previous long cycles with not enough recovery. Eg someone will do 2 x 10 week cycles, with little time off, and then do a 4 week cycle with tren, and then complain about the horrendous shut down caused by the last 4 week cycle, not taking into account the effect off all the other cycles. I think HPTA problems are due to the last 2 years of cycle use, not only the last cycle that you did.

I want to know what BBigman thinks about this post?


I want to know how far past genetic limits you could go with these kinds of cycles

I really doubt you'll get far above...at some stage you'll just reach genetic limit and keep bumping up and down as you use steroids I suppose.

That's why I'd say for competition bb'ers, this is not enough. But to get to your genetic potential, and every now and then bump it up, I think it's pretty good.

ORIGINAL: Zircon

Short cycles is for the patient...long for the impatient...

I think until you're a certain level short cyles are great, and then if you do want to take it further, you'll have to do long cyclews with high doses.

I think as well that in later stages when people have problems it is because of their previous long cycles with not enough recovery. Eg someone will do 2 x 10 week cycles, with little time off, and then do a 4 week cycle with tren, and then complain about the horrendous shut down caused by the last 4 week cycle, not taking into account the effect off all the other cycles. I think HPTA problems are due to the last 2 years of cycle use, not only the last cycle that you did.

lol sounds like me

www.kvos.co.uk
Your Virtual Assistant

ORIGINAL: bryan

i think short cycles is a good idea aswell. however, in those first enitial cycles where u want to pack on as much mass as possible are 10 weekers not better? the reason i say this is that many people i have spoken to agree that recovery from your first few cycles is good, and cycles later on is wen recovery becomes harder, so shorter cycles cood be the way to go then. but if you want as much mass as possible, longer cycles must be beter than shorter.

Agree 100%, Listen to Zircon, I have been their my self. 2 long cycles in a row and i was completly shut down and lost 110% of my gains from the second cycle. I ended up being smaller than i was at the end of my first cycle!

Interested in creating your own social networking website using only open source software? checkout my website www.joomlaplazza.com

ORIGINAL: axlandslash44x

I want to know what BBigman thinks about this post?


I want to know how far past genetic limits you could go with these kinds of cycles

Why do you want to know what he thinks? he never comes off gear and has a totally different agenda from guys who do short cycles. Short cycles are for guys who want to limit their time on gear and get maximum post cycle retention of gains with a view to maintaining size without further need for gear use. Their not for the type of guy who just goes on gear indefinatly and only cares about getting as massive as possible.

Short cycles wont take you far beyond your genetic limit because once you reach that limit you will slowly loose size back down to your genetic limit when off gear. You cannot mantain gains above your genetic limit for any length of time without being on gear! Short cycle will however produce long lasting gains in size and strength and bring you up to your genetic limit. Which for most is still quite impressive.

Interested in creating your own social networking website using only open source software? checkout my website www.joomlaplazza.com

article is not to bad compared to some i have read however it lack any controlled study, one of the key failures is that by cycling in this way you may in fact permanantly effect your natural test production whilst using the cycles untill you finally take a longer break. 6 weeks on 4 weeks off and then repeat indefinantly is not imo enough time to recover and hence again imo you are always supressed to some degree or another. imo there are benefits but time off has to be longer imo to minimise supression effectively.

keeping gains is about having the right diet/training and rest programme sorted, my last cycle was 6 months long and i havnt dropped a pound in 4 months off despite being 21 stone. there is no right or wrong way to run cycles imo, i would suggest any serious weight trainer and steroid user looks at the long game and tries both, always with an eye on health.

i never said he had the same aims.........

He's knows his sh*t and i value his point of view and input

i prefer long cycle's with short breaks

ORIGINAL: THE BARBARIAN

Agree 100%, Listen to Zircon, I have been their my self. 2 long cycles in a row and i was completly shut down and lost 110% of my gains from the second cycle. I ended up being smaller than i was at the end of my first cycle!

Im really curious barbarian, as I will be running 2 10 week cycles,

Can you please tell me exactly what you ran and how long off inbetween cycles you took,

Many thanks THE BARBARIAN

#bodybuilding.uk @ irc.quakenet.eu.org

LoL damn that sucks barbarian

Yeah first cycle was Test eth 500mg/EQ 400mgs for 10 weeks, Gained 16 pounds kept about a stone soild after PCT. I ran HCG the last week of the cycle and one week post cycle then ran a standard 50mg clomid/ 20mg nolva per day starting 2 weeks post cycle. The results were great and i was keen to get more of this so I waited 8 weeks after pct and done another 10 week cycle of 500mg test eth 400mgs deca. The gains again were good although not quite as good as the first one. I ran the test for a further 3 weeks so in total the cycle probably lasted about 15 weeks. I then came off thinking the clomid plus Nolva would be enough and skipped the HCG, Boy was i wrong. About 2 weeks after my last shot of test i started to shrink and after about 2 weeks i reasiled that i was'nt recovering and went and got some HCG. But by that time id lost about a stone in body weight, People thought i had cancer or something i had lost that much weight. Anyway the HCG seemed to kick start the boys back in to action and i slowly started to recover but it was about a month before i could get an erection again and even then for several months after the cycle My sex drive was low and i could'nt keep it up for very long. My girl friend started to think i had gone off her.

What i basicaly think happend was. After the first cycle I managed to recover but not fully and when i started the second cycle I had not fully recoverd so this just shut me down even further. I think the deca played a big part in makeing this situtation worse. By the time it came to the end of the second cycle my testicals had been inactive for so long that even tho I was taking clomid and nolva they were unable to respond to the high levels of LH and produce enough test to keep the gains. I think after a cycle like this HCG is a must in order to atleast bring back some sensitivity to the testicals before starting clomid/nolva. Also deca is known for this sort of thing. It has an extremly long half-life and hangs around in the body interfearing with recovery for a month or 2 post cycle.

You see each time you do a long cycle it can take up to 6 months or even a year in some peoples case for their pre-cycle test levels to fully recover. Guys seems to think all you need is a couple of weeks on clomid and thats you recoverd from a 10 week cycle, This BS all clomid/nolva does it give you a little kick start in recovery, It takes time for your hormones to reocver and rebalance again. What happens when you keep doing cycles without recovering fully is each time you do a cycle you just shut yourself down that little bit further and eventually it catches up with you so when you do finaly come off for any length of time you are completely shut down as bad as it gets and you have no hope of recoverying in time, and you end up loosing everything you worked so hard for. 3 months on gear then 4 weeks off then on again isnt even comeing off in my book! Youv no hope of recovering in that time and your just kidding yourself.

What iv learn is Never use deca!, Be on no longer than 6 weeks, HCG is a good idea as long as you dont over do it. And your better off using fast acting gear and cutting out all the dead time.

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Thanks for the info THE BARBARIAN, much appreicated, unlucky about the loss of mass.

Unfortunetly I have 20ml Deca and I cant see it going to waste so Im going to run my cycle and pray to god I can recover:

Test enth 500mg 1 - 10
Deca 400mg 1 - 8
Dbol 30mg ed 1 - 4
Clenbuterol to help maintain gains

PCT:
HCG
Clomid
Nolvadex

Do you think I have any chance of recovering and keeping a lot of gains?

#bodybuilding.uk @ irc.quakenet.eu.org

Hey mate, your cycle looks well thought out and pretty standard. I'd like to see some other guys comment on the amount and timing of your hcg, there's a lot of differences in how people use it. Personally I think you should use it sparingly and perhaps only in the last week or 2 of your cycle...but ask around.

Clomid/nolva pct should be good, try and make it 4 weeks pct even.

You should gain great, and I doubt you will have a problem recovering, you can probably do 2-3 cycles like this before you have any problems with recovery, but this will differ from person to person...the best for you would be blood tests...