Help pls - Cancer/Diet

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (RedHotF)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:05:01 GMT

dazc

i believe the person should do whatever is going to make them enjoy what time they have the most.

I agree with this.

Sorry to hear your sad news Rich, best wishes x

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (James)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:37:58 GMT

Tony Barnes

That's still giving up in my book though James.

I'm an optimistic person, always have been, but at the same time I do feel I am a realist too.

Realistically, the chances of diet and lifestyle changes saving the life of someone who has maybe months ahead of them are slim. Optimistically slim is better than none.

If they feel they don't want to fight any more, and just enjoy what time they have left, fine, their choice, their right. I'm just highlighting that there is always the choice to try, as that's also everyone's right.

Personally I'd rather go down fighting.

But it's not giving up. There's some point where fighting will reduce quality of life. Like you I'm an optimist and a fighter, but from my mother I realised there was some give up point. She fought cancer for 11 years, and I cannot emphasise the hardness of the fight enough - she fought so hard she had loads of other cancer sufferers come and visit her for inspiration. The last few months for her were not good. One day she sat me down and told me she was giving up and I was furious with her. But over the next few days she convinced me this was the best thing for her and the point had come to relax. Then a few years later I was working in the health service and saw many palliative cancer patients, some I chatted with and realised it's a common mindset for the very terminally ill.

Sure it's everyone's right, and the fact that you say this confirms you're still completely missing Les' and my point! I certainly agree with everything you say ... but that's not what I meant.

I am a very positive person, trust me on that, and sometimes palliative care is the positive way. But, hey, don't ask me, you can only go on what those in that condition have said.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (john_cappa)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:58:54 GMT

There is much talk about not giving up the fight etc and trying other options etc to prolong life/cure etc.

My own personal experience is that it is better to keep doing as the patient always did. This gives the patient a feeling of well being and normality in their lives i think. Radical changes in diet act as a constant reminder of sickness to the patient i think and are wont have any effect on prognosis etc. Normality and quality of life are paramount at this time especially since everything in their lives has been thrown into disarray.

Im considering a post in General about cancer as i am struggling with various issues but i think it may upset many people on the board, opening old wounds.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Big Les)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:32:41 GMT

and of course 5 year survival rates tell you nothing of the quality of life in those 5 years.

I think the Liverpool care pathway and the gold standards framework are the best guides in palliative care.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Nigeepoo)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:05:48 GMT

When conventional medicine switches from active treatment to palliative treatment, it means that conventional medicine has given up.

Some study on PubMed mentioned the survival rate of women with metastatic breast cancer. The 5 year figure was ~1.5%. That's pretty bad, but it's not zero.

Have the doctors tried absolutely everything? See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15325667 & http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15446562 & http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15864701 & http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10431585 & http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17940392 to name a few.

The above case studies may of course be irrelevant to Chris' friend/relative's case.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Tony Barnes)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:01:57 GMT

That's still giving up in my book though James.

I'm an optimistic person, always have been, but at the same time I do feel I am a realist too.

Realistically, the chances of diet and lifestyle changes saving the life of someone who has maybe months ahead of them are slim. Optimistically slim is better than none.

If they feel they don't want to fight any more, and just enjoy what time they have left, fine, their choice, their right. I'm just highlighting that there is always the choice to try, as that's also everyone's right.

Personally I'd rather go down fighting.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (James)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:44:24 GMT

Tony Barnes

Big Les

I may appear cynical - but really I dont want false hope to very vulnerable people. People with metatastic cancer die; I wont lie to anyone about this, I have seen it, I have had to explain it - and I think anyone who holds out false hope to these people is anything from genuinely misguided to a lowlife depending on what they are doing.
And I also think dangling false hope is cruel and unethical.

A nutritionist powerlifter we sponsor, Pat Reeves (http://www.foodalive.org/index.html), has a genetic predisposition to cancer, and has metstases (sp?!) in various places (last time I spoke to her she had about 16 tumours) around her body.

She "should" of died a long, long time ago.

Instead she still competes in powerlifting setting records in her age/weight classes.

What she doesn't know about diet and cancer I'd probably fit on a stamp.

False hope is wrong, but shutting the door on possibility is potentially worse. As I said earlier you should always prepare yourself for the worst, but you should also aim for the best.

You're still missing Les' point though Tony. From the information we're given this is is palliative care, not just stopping progression of cancer. There is a certain stage when cancer has to be treated as palliative. In particular it depends where the tumours are and if they are still growing.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (YumPies)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:09:19 GMT

Hi guys,
Still yet to sink in tbh, this discussion is interesting even purely from a academic POV.

Ive forwarded the macmillion site to the person but thats all for now, i'm not sure what to do interms of diet advice & this research stuff.

I suppose what ill do is mention it and maybe it can be brought up with the Dr's, even if it inspires one doctor to work harder thats good enough. As of yet ive avoided the subject to be honest, its quite a wierd thing to think about, specially talk about.

Id rather have fun times, than the depressing conversations.

Thanks guys,
Good has come from this, but it feels a bit selfish to admit that and has made me question my morals and values in wierd ways. "Good" coming from someones inevitable death is kinda hard to take, in a way i guess good coming from it is better than nothing. Yet you almost feel like your taking advantage of someones disadvantage/bad luck which doesnt sit well.

Strange place to be

Value your health guys, appreciate your loved ones!

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (dazc)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:21:36 GMT

i believe the person should do whatever is going to make them enjoy what time they have the most.

following a very restricted diet, particularly in the later stages will be a huge battle. they may end up trying to live on food that makes them feel ill, and that they almost cant physically eat. Driven on by false hope that its somehow going to cure them. It wont. some people may have lived longer than expected, but it cant be show that this is related to diet anymore than it can be shown it isnt.

i dont like posts that seem to promise things, or give false hope. Ive seen just how much people can put themselfs through because of this false hope. And because of how hard the news is to deal with, there is a real risk of people finding false how in the most ridiculous or restricted of lifestyles.

quality of life has to come first. As les put it, 'if they fancy a bacon sandwich, eat a bacon sandwich'.

palletable foods can change so much day to day, to suggest they then live on a highly restricted diet, is in my view counterproductive.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Tony Barnes)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:00:41 GMT

Big Les

I may appear cynical - but really I dont want false hope to very vulnerable people. People with metatastic cancer die; I wont lie to anyone about this, I have seen it, I have had to explain it - and I think anyone who holds out false hope to these people is anything from genuinely misguided to a lowlife depending on what they are doing.
And I also think dangling false hope is cruel and unethical.

A nutritionist powerlifter we sponsor, Pat Reeves (http://www.foodalive.org/index.html), has a genetic predisposition to cancer, and has metstases (sp?!) in various places (last time I spoke to her she had about 16 tumours) around her body.

She "should" of died a long, long time ago.

Instead she still competes in powerlifting setting records in her age/weight classes.

What she doesn't know about diet and cancer I'd probably fit on a stamp.

False hope is wrong, but shutting the door on possibility is potentially worse. As I said earlier you should always prepare yourself for the worst, but you should also aim for the best.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Nigeepoo)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:07:15 GMT

Big Les
Nige - interesting paper: one comment - an induced brain tumour in mice is a long way from a tumour in humans, and a even further distance from a metatastic cancer in anyone. Sorry - but that is a lovely research direction - that isnt news to anyone but the research community. Also it is taling about ketones, and we already know they have a unique role in brain metabolism - and I would already suggest that the applicability of anything based on ketones would be limited largely if not exclusively to brain based tumour growth. I wouldnt even be looking at possible venues for your party just yet!

Les, THIS study was on 86 cancer patients so it was a human trial. Whether MG level from a keto diet is as effective is unknown.

Big Les
I may appear cynical - but really I dont want false hope to very vulnerable people. People with metatastic cancer die; I wont lie to anyone about this, I have seen it, I have had to explain it - and I think anyone who holds out false hope to these people is anything from genuinely misguided to a lowlife depending on what they are doing. And I also think dangling false hope is cruel and unethical.

Hope for the best - by all means; but plan for the worst - exceptions are big news because they are just that exceptions!

Agreed. Although miracles can & do happen, they are extremely rare. However, it ain't over 'til it's over.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Big Les)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:21:27 GMT

Tony - not talking about aeitiology of cancer
I am talking about cancer at the metatastic stage where treatment is palliative - and that only.

Nige - interesting paper: one comment - an induced brain tumour in mice is a long way from a tumour in humans, and a even further distance from a metatastic cancer in anyone.

Sorry - but that is a lovely research direction - that isnt news to anyone but the research community.
Also it is taling about ketones, and we already know they have a unique role in brain metabolism - and I would already suggest that the applicability of anything based on ketones would be limited largely if not exclusively to brain based tumour growth.
I wouldnt even be looking at possible venues for your party just yet!

I may appear cynical - but really I dont want false hope to very vulnerable people. People with metatastic cancer die; I wont lie to anyone about this, I have seen it, I have had to explain it - and I think anyone who holds out false hope to these people is anything from genuinely misguided to a lowlife depending on what they are doing.
And I also think dangling false hope is cruel and unethical.

Hope for the best - by all means; but plan for the worst - exceptions are big news because they are just that exceptions!

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Tony Barnes)

Sun, 15 Nov 2009 18:57:03 GMT

Les I have to disagree, diet can play a hugely important role. Cancer has increased massively since the industrialisation of food growth/processing.

Can you say "diet/lifestyle changes will definitely cure you" - no.

Can you say "diet/lifestyle changes have definitely helped/cured some" - yes.

Seriously do check out salvestrols - http://www.salvestrol.ca/index.asp (first page I found when googling) - Canada in particular is taking them very seriously and spending a lot on them. One of the compounds is being replicated/reverse engineered by the pharmaceutical world due to it's action. I've seen data where the metabolites can be used as a "cancer test". Basic function is activation in cells where the CYP1 (?) is active, this is only found in cancerous cells, and the metabolites are toxic, killing the cell in question.

Again, nothing is a definite, but good honest organic food, prefferably old more bitter variants is at worst going to improve your diet, at best help with the cancer.

Agree with Nige, doing nothing is IMO the worst option.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (essex_chris)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:20:16 GMT

Must say that reading this it's very touching to see the wealth of knowledge and support being proffered.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Nigeepoo)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:47:16 GMT

Big Les
I dont like posting this but I want to see the study that says cancer thrives on a high sugar diet....

I think it's not that a high sugar/carb diet encourages cancer cells to grow, but that a ketogenic diet greatly increases serum methyglyoxal, which is toxic to cancer cells (by inhibiting glycolysis). See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18533369
"A methylglyoxal-based anticancer formulation was developed and a three-phase study of treating a total number of 86 cancer patients was carried out. The results appear to be promising. Most of the cancer patients benefited greatly and a significant number of patients became free of the disease. Contrary to the effect of existing anticancer drugs, this methylglyoxal-based formulation is devoid of any toxic effect and reasonably effective against a wide variety of cancers. The symptomatic improvements of the many patients who died of progressive disease suggest that the formulation could also be used for palliation." So, miracles can happen.

See also http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-4-5.pdf and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18304378

Big Les
I am very opposed to making anyone with cancer try things unless they really want to, and only if they are in full possession of the knowledge that the dietary change they are making is going to have negligible effect on prognosis.

Agreed. A ketogenic diet may cause even more nausea than is already being experienced.

Doing nothing may result in feelings of "If only I'd xxxx" whereas doing everything possible, even if it fails, won't.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (just t)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 13:41:00 GMT

Well maybe look into isothiocyanates.

Lightly steamed cruciferous vegetables will yield the greatest amount of these compounds.

Quite a bit of fairly decent evidence suggesting some protective effects. However, im not sure as to the extent they may help after the condition has progressed.

Evidence suggesting phase 1 and 2 enzyme modification (associated with the control of carcinogens), induction of apoptosis and cell cycle arrest (removal of damaged cells) and angiogenesis (to do with the formation of new blood vessels to feed a tumour).

Interesting reading.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (YumPies)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 12:31:02 GMT

Thanks guys for postings, feel free to debate over alternative 'remedies' as this isn't some kind of "Pity me" post, as always debate and discussion can only help to further everyones knowledge or reduce confusion over the 'alternative' treatments and i welcome that.

Thanks for the best wishes, ill get onto macmillian and will read up on all you've said. If it helps then great, if it does nothing then atleast its been tried.

Thanks

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Drew Price)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:43:07 GMT

Nothing to add over and above the previous posts just to reiterate that these sad situations often lead to the position where peoples hopes can be played/prayed upon by unscrupulous quacks.

Of course there's always going be a disconnect between clinical support which has to be tried and tested and newer therapies which may have some worth but haven't got the evidential support but there is a lot of potentially harmful therapies and practitioners out there.

I of course also send you my best wishes.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (mumnson)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 11:01:54 GMT

Hey, I am in no way suggesting anything other than hope, this is a situation where the cancer has spread and we are talking time not cure. I respect what you have said and as with most things to do with herbs there is little evidence to show how things work and more over even if people try herbal remedies along side convential medicine they'll think it was the convential medicine that helped.
I too believe things should only be tried if you believe in them, I follow a raw diet with all of my dogs and have raised litters on them, but when I started it was quite frowned upon by most, but I believed I was making a difference and as yet I have still to be proved wrong. You shouldn't knock what you haven't tried, and whether this lady wishes to try anything is down to her, but I do know desperation does make you reach out to alternative therapies. I'm not suggesting special diets that are so intense they spend all their day in the kitchen. I'm suggesting a modified diet with the addition of herbs which MAY make a difference to her, and hope is what is needed here in such a desperate situation. Hope drives us on, hope gives us strength, neither you nor I can say for sure it won't make a difference to her.
The poster asked for suggestions, and that is what I have offered, no more, no less. I personally believe in the power of herbs and I am no fanatic, as I said I have a nursing background.

Re:Help pls - Cancer/Diet (Big Les)

Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:50:03 GMT

I dont like posting this but I want to see the study that says cancer thrives on a high sugar diet.

Cancer alters the metabolism of the body; in cachexia the latest discoveries are that the changes happen at a cellular level: a rough idea was that the tumor took the nutrients preferentially to grow - and from this the idea that dietary restrictions could slow tumour growth arose.

Unfortunately - it is an alteration of metabolism that is systemic that appears to be happening - and as such the cancer cells will grow, and tissue will be sacrificed as this growth occours.
Changing the provisioning of nutrients to the body does not change what the cancer cells are doing - a metatastic cancer has spread - and so you are dealing with multiple sites of altered cellular activity, this includes the lymph system and what ever other sites of tumour growth.

I am very opposed to making anyone with cancer try things unless they really want to, and only if they are in full possession of the knowledge that the dietary change they are making is going to have negligible effect on prognosis.

If it improves quality - great; but again - i am very sceptical on this. Maybe that comes from my experience - admittedly only about 30 people - all with terminal metatastic cancer and for palliative treatment - and only over 12 weeks - but I think it gave me a flavour.