Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (uj)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:34:01 GMT

Drew Price

..... or does it?

Google Demling and DeSante, 2000 I think.

There's simply not enough research for our needs when comparing. As I keep saying around these parts one or two studies show very little.

huge increases of mps when whey hyro taken after weights, compared to sedentary condition and far better than quick soya.
demling etc milk protein conc-good study on low cal firefighters, perhaps helping preserve muscle mass(anti-catabolic), perhaps even rebuilding muscle they'd previously lost.

of course, more studies needed to put the puzzle together.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Drew Price)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:00:28 GMT

..... or does it?

Google Demling and DeSante, 2000 I think.

There's simply not enough research for our needs when comparing. As I keep saying around these parts one or two studies show very little.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (uj)

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:42:43 GMT

Mobster

James

Mobster

If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

No, my job is to teach and advise - I educate my clients and give my opinion, but encourage them to make up their own minds. There isn't enough proof, but my article is to educate and I make the very valid point that there's more evidence and a stronger theory for many other supplements which people anecdotally rave about - even some sold by the more reputable supplement companies.

The power of one anecdote is far stronger than the power of epidemiology!

I'm sure this is true and I do the same. The info provided is not something which has just been created but already exists and is there for them... yet there they are asking for, a la Arnold 'the advices'. And paying for it.

An example of info not needed: Robbie Durand and those that actually carried out the study wasted there time 'Casein Hydrosylates Increase Protein Synthesis More Than Casein' You mean to tell me that a more available easier to digest form of Casein needed to be tested (again) so we can read what we already had an idea of?? There is a line or three which relate to your article which may be of interest 'Another interesting finding was that protein breakdown rates tended to be further lowered after ingestion of protein hydrosylate, compared to casein protein, which may be due to the greater insulin release that was observed after protein hydrosylate ingestion. Elevated insulin concentrations have been shown to inhibit protein breakdown.^3,4,5 In contrast, it has been suggested that increases in circulating insulin concentrations are instrumental in stimulating skeletal muscle blood flow— thereby augmenting amino acid delivery to the muscle.^6,7 Consequently, both the increase in plasma amino acid availability and the greater plasma insulin response after hydrolyzed casein— compared to casein ingestion (during the initial 3-hour post-feeding period)— might enhance postprandial muscle protein anabolism. This result indicates that the intake of a casein hydrosylate, as opposed to casein, further stimulates the anabolic response to food intake mainly by inhibiting whole-body protein breakdown.'

The article is referenced so more can be read as required.

Whey protein hydrolysate blows away............

vhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih...VDocSum&ordinalpos=6

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Mobster)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:27:18 GMT

James

Mobster

If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

No, my job is to teach and advise - I educate my clients and give my opinion, but encourage them to make up their own minds. There isn't enough proof, but my article is to educate and I make the very valid point that there's more evidence and a stronger theory for many other supplements which people anecdotally rave about - even some sold by the more reputable supplement companies.

The power of one anecdote is far stronger than the power of epidemiology!

I'm sure this is true and I do the same. The info provided is not something which has just been created but already exists and is there for them... yet there they are asking for, a la Arnold 'the advices'. And paying for it.

An example of info not needed: Robbie Durand and those that actually carried out the study wasted there time 'Casein Hydrosylates Increase Protein Synthesis More Than Casein' You mean to tell me that a more available easier to digest form of Casein needed to be tested (again) so we can read what we already had an idea of?? There is a line or three which relate to your article which may be of interest 'Another interesting finding was that protein breakdown rates tended to be further lowered after ingestion of protein hydrosylate, compared to casein protein, which may be due to the greater insulin release that was observed after protein hydrosylate ingestion. Elevated insulin concentrations have been shown to inhibit protein breakdown.^3,4,5 In contrast, it has been suggested that increases in circulating insulin concentrations are instrumental in stimulating skeletal muscle blood flow— thereby augmenting amino acid delivery to the muscle.^6,7 Consequently, both the increase in plasma amino acid availability and the greater plasma insulin response after hydrolyzed casein— compared to casein ingestion (during the initial 3-hour post-feeding period)— might enhance postprandial muscle protein anabolism. This result indicates that the intake of a casein hydrosylate, as opposed to casein, further stimulates the anabolic response to food intake mainly by inhibiting whole-body protein breakdown.'

The article is referenced so more can be read as required.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (James)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:24:01 GMT

BigMe

If whey or casein hydrolysate increase insulin response, is this acting in the same way as carbs i.e would this kick you out of ketosis if using a ketogenic diet?

No, it's s different way to carbs, and no this would not kick you out of ketosis; the effect is relatively small.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (James)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:23:15 GMT

Mobster

If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

No, my job is to teach and advise - I educate my clients and give my opinion, but encourage them to make up their own minds. There isn't enough proof, but my article is to educate and I make the very valid point that there's more evidence and a stronger theory for many other supplements which people anecdotally rave about - even some sold by the more reputable supplement companies.

The power of one anecdote is far stronger than the power of epidemiology!

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (James)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:20:21 GMT

naththebeast

Good read, however it seems like it will taste disgusting and is very pricey so personally will jsut stick with standard whey.

Still some interesting stuff to read, learnt a couple of things at least

Which was my goal. People can make their own informed choice.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (BigMe)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:28:59 GMT

If whey or casein hydrolysate increase insulin response, is this acting in the same way as carbs i.e would this kick you out of ketosis if using a ketogenic diet?

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Mobster)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:43:45 GMT

James

Thanks for posting Reflex and Drew.

In response:

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

Well, as you pointed out this is a question. I was hoping my concluding 2 paragraphs summed my feelings up ok. Have a read and you'll see my thoughts.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Scientific evidence is a term which is very broad. I'd say there's more scientific evidence for CPH than loads of other supplements, including some you sell.

And the term 'scientifically proven' is not one I like to use, because in science little is 'proven'; more 'evidence for'.

I didn't see that one study, no. But does one study make the evidence conclusive? Definitely not, and I made the point about evidence in my article. Like Drew says, sure there's lack of good evidence, I agree.

Nevertheless, I wrote this article for information for readers to arm themselves with more knowledge when purchasing proteins.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

You'll never find proof for anything, especially for supplements. I agree though, the evidence is weak. But people should be able to make up their own minds. There is theory though, and that's a hell of a lot more than there is for a bulk of other supplements.

If 'people' could do that we'd both be out of a job. So they pay for advice and guidance. In this case, as stated, there doesn't seem to be enough proof. Even in the case of those using it it seems more hopeful than anything.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (naththebeast)

Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:39:24 GMT

Good read, however it seems like it will taste disgusting and is very pricey so personally will jsut stick with standard whey.

Still some interesting stuff to read, learnt a couple of things at least

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Gogz87)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 22:37:23 GMT

Love the debate. Makes for very interesting reading!!

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (James)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:03:31 GMT

Thanks for posting Reflex and Drew.

In response:

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

Well, as you pointed out this is a question. I was hoping my concluding 2 paragraphs summed my feelings up ok. Have a read and you'll see my thoughts.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Scientific evidence is a term which is very broad. I'd say there's more scientific evidence for CPH than loads of other supplements, including some you sell.

And the term 'scientifically proven' is not one I like to use, because in science little is 'proven'; more 'evidence for'.

I didn't see that one study, no. But does one study make the evidence conclusive? Definitely not, and I made the point about evidence in my article. Like Drew says, sure there's lack of good evidence, I agree.

Nevertheless, I wrote this article for information for readers to arm themselves with more knowledge when purchasing proteins.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

You'll never find proof for anything, especially for supplements. I agree though, the evidence is weak. But people should be able to make up their own minds. There is theory though, and that's a hell of a lot more than there is for a bulk of other supplements.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Drew Price)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:49:31 GMT

Cheers for the response,

actually, I'd disagree that there isn't any evidence of CPH > WPH, in fact, clearly there is.

Whether or not there is enough quality evidence, well I wouldn't want to make a large capital investment off the back of what's around at the moment.

Certainly at least on paper they both have their advantages which is why I generally combine them in peri training nutrition if I use them at all.

Thanks again.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (REFLEX)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:09:13 GMT

Drew Price

REFLEX

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Lack of evidence?

Sorry to pin your down but do you mean 'lack of evidence' that CPH could be considered more useful to trainees/athletes than WPH or that there is a lack of evidence that CPH is of worth for the athlete/trainee.

If the former I can see why a company could be reticent to expand operations on the basis of this, if it is the second then I would encourage you to look at the literature again.

Perhaps you mean lack of good evidence?

REFLEX

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Whether it does or not, one recent paper cited once does not equal 'scientifically proven'. There's a greater body of evidence for the efficacy of CPH than one paper for example.

There's obviously more work out there on WPH and insulin but you say 'here is the [very recent] study' and quote exact figures from it, but quote a lack of evidence for CPH, so again I don't undertand what you're basing your first statement regarding CPH and evidence on?

Be interesting to know.

Cheers.

Drew,

I'll be more specific.

When we were approached to sell the said Casein Hydrolysate we asked if there was any proof that it was any better than Whey Protein Hydrolysate. There wasn't any proof, so we don't use it.

We certainly DO believe that whey protein hydrolysate has its benefits for athletes.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Mobster)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:43:17 GMT

In their defence James himself said it 'might' have some use. Based on the arguments thus far and one of the other members comments I'd say there is not enough to say it's worth adding (it's expensive, tastes foul and MIGHT work / be of some use).

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Drew Price)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:01:52 GMT

REFLEX

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Lack of evidence?

Sorry to pin your down but do you mean 'lack of evidence' that CPH could be considered more useful to trainees/athletes than WPH or that there is a lack of evidence that CPH is of worth for the athlete/trainee.

If the former I can see why a company could be reticent to expand operations on the basis of this, if it is the second then I would encourage you to look at the literature again.

Perhaps you mean lack of good evidence?

REFLEX

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Whether it does or not, one recent paper cited once does not equal 'scientifically proven'. There's a greater body of evidence for the efficacy of CPH than one paper for example.

There's obviously more work out there on WPH and insulin but you say 'here is the [very recent] study' and quote exact figures from it, but quote a lack of evidence for CPH, so again I don't undertand what you're basing your first statement regarding CPH and evidence on?

Be interesting to know.

Cheers.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (Drew Price)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:04:58 GMT

Yes James, I used to get it from Dr B at Myopure, who has been providing a bulk service in Aus since way before Myprotein and the like.

I should add I used or use this mostly with endurance athletes.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (REFLEX)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:32:51 GMT

James

I have put together a new article regarding casein hydrolysate:

Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein?

You can view it through the Supplement Articles link on the right ---------------->

Or directly here

Please post comments and queries below

Cream of post workout proteins?

In a word no.

At Reflex Nutrition we've been looking at protein hydrolysates for over 12 years, we turned the offer of selling casein hydrolysate down because a lack of scientific evidence.

Whey Protein Hydrolysate is scientifically proven to raise insulin levels, I don't know why you missed this James?

Here is the study: http://www.carbery.com/...Posters%20LoRes%20V2.pdf

You'll note that whey protein hydrolysate provides a 28% increase in insulin over ordinary whey protein isolate.

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (mick_the_brick)

Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:31:55 GMT

Thanks for your replies James :)

Re:Article: Casein Hydrolysate – The Cream of Post Workout Protein? (dazc)

Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:29:37 GMT

your a better man than i! CEE had me beat! lol