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Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY

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Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/01/26 09:57:41 (permalink)
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frankie, what do you think to this mate:

http://muscletalk.co.uk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=69448

i posted this acouple of weeks ago, not going to change it but would love some help with a set/rep scheme. at the moment i am going for 3x8-12 as i need soe time to adjust to the new exersizes. thoughts on this would be appreciated as it is similar in principle to yours.
rob
#21
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/01/26 20:21:59 (permalink)
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Robert:

I don't like your routine personally. I don't like routines where you workout with weights two days a row as I dont' think it gives you enough recovery time. I think a more effective way to organize your routine would be to move some exercises from day 1 to day 2 and vice versa. Do day 1 and then rest two days before doing day 2.

Nevertheless, sometimes the only way to know if something works is to try it. So, give it a go and see what happens.

If you're training for muscular endurance, 8-12 reps is fine. For size and strength I'd shoot for 5-6 rep sets.
#22
Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/01/27 12:06:55 (permalink)
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If you're training for muscular endurance, 8-12 reps is fine. For size and strength I'd shoot for 5-6 rep sets.....

ok thanks. like i said, the high reps were just to get in to the swing of things, like the overhead squat for example, i nee to get my form right before i move down to weights with 5 reps. TBH, i have used this routine for the past, er... [can't think] 3 weeks and i have worked-out about 8 times in that space so far. it seems to be going well, and the second day is purely core strength/grip, there is no/very little actual lifting involved so recovery isnot an issue at the moment - i also do a bit of active recovery now and agin, this seems to help a lot. i will keep the board posted on my progress over the coming months.
thankyou for the advice
rob
#23
BYF1
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/01 13:29:08 (permalink)
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Hi

Ive done workout 1 and 2 now of this routine and have enjoyed it a lot! squatting and deadlifting every week now is great and im sure will help me gain.

the only changes ive made is ive replaced bench press with weighted push ups due to not owning a bench, will this be ok?

Im also wondering if i can replace wide grip chins with close grip chins (palms facing) as my doorway chin bar is probably not wide enough at only 28 inches, is this an ok replacement?

Sorry to go on but ive been stuck a bit with overhead pressing/milatary press, what is the correct width of grip to have when milatary pressing. Ive been using a grip width of about 34 inches which is quite a bit wider than my shoulder width and i was wondering if a wider grip puts more pressure on the back/core muscles than a narrower grip would?? I bring the bar down to my upper chest and press overhead strictly with no leg drive with my feet side by side.
#24
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/01 16:42:56 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by BYF1

the only changes ive made is ive replaced bench press with weighted push ups due to not owning a bench, will this be ok?


Something is better than nothing, but I rather see you on a bench. If you train at home, buy a bench and if you can, a power rack. They're not that expensive. If you can only afford a bench, then buy some dumbbell bars and do dumbbell bench.

quote:

Im also wondering if i can replace wide grip chins with close grip chins (palms facing) as my doorway chin bar is probably not wide enough at only 28 inches, is this an ok replacement?


No, wide grip overhand chins are mainly a lat exercise and close grip underhand chins are mainly a biceps exercise. If you buy a power rack, you can do both wide and close grip chins on the chinning bar.

quote:

What is the correct width of grip to have when military pressing. I bring the bar down to my upper chest and press overhead strictly with no leg drive with my feet side by side.


About two hands wider on each side than shoulder width is good. You don't want to military press with your feet side by side. This is very unstable and puts a lot of stress on the lower back. Use a shoulder width stance. You will be much more stable and probably able to press more weight.
#25
ice_mach
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/01 17:22:03 (permalink)
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frankie, jus wonderin why u think bench is better than weighted pushups?
i think they're a great exercise which develops ur core and scapular muscles very well, and jus as good chest exercise as bench, if not better.
#26
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/01 20:39:34 (permalink)
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ice_mach:

I don't necessarily think one is "better" than the other. I don't have much experience with weighted pushups nor do I know anyone who has built a big chest doing them. But that doesn't mean that they don't work.

The main disadvantage I see with weighted pushups is getting the weight in place.
#27
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/03 15:45:00 (permalink)
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Sorry Frankie, but that routine looks crap to me. There is no direct Hamstring work and IMO deads is not enough to cover this aspect. There is no calve work. The is limited lower back work. Almost no chest work. The exercise order is to obscure. You combine to many muscle groups in one day for it to be effective.

IMO, wouldn't touch it with a barge pole
#28
BYF1
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/03 17:54:03 (permalink)
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no direct hamstring work no but standard deads hit my hams plenty.

I wouldn't call either flat bench, or wide dips, almost no chest work, i'd term it enough chest work.

I qusetioned the exercise order too, but overhead pressing first in workout 2 i think is a good idea, as frankie says above this is many peoples weakness including mine.

To be honest, i don't think calves are the main priorty with this workout but overall mass is and squats work the calves to a good extent.
#29
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/03 19:33:37 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by ozzy

Sorry Frankie, but that routine looks crap to me.


I'm not surprised by your response. You seem to disagree with most everything I post. At this point, I must conclude that you have some sort of personal issue with me. The only thing you accomplish by personal attacks is to bring your own credibility into question.

quote:

There is no direct Hamstring work and IMO deads is not enough to cover this aspect.


Squats and deadlifts work the hamstrings plenty. Also, after 4-8 weeks, I'd recommend rotating the exercises. So if you do normal deadlifts this cycle, you could do stiff-leg deadlifts next cycle.

quote:

There is no calve work.


This is a valid point. For those that need calf work, please add some in.

quote:

The is limited lower back work.


Deadlifts and squats work your lower back quite thoroghly. Your observation befuddles me.

quote:

Almost no chest work.


Bench presses and dips??? The last time I checked these were probably the best chest mass builder there are. Again, your observation befuddles me.

quote:

The exercise order is to obscure. You combine too many muscle groups in one day for it to be effective.


The whole point of a more total body oriented workout is to work many muscle groups on the same day. Regarding effectiveness, I've seen many guys get huge on a program like this. So, I can only speak from 20 years of experience in strength training and bodybuilding.
#30
Big-Ron
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/03 20:09:17 (permalink)
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This routine is right up my street and way of thinking , although currently injured ive got a routine in a similar guise just a little more 'McRobert' style for when i return.

But this routine will definately get a run out in the future. Good stuff once again Frankie
#31
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 10:04:40 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Frankie NY

I'm not surprised by your response. You seem to disagree with most everything I post. At this point, I must conclude that you have some sort of personal issue with me. The only thing you accomplish by personal attacks is to bring your own credibility into question.
I have nothing against you, i just don't think this is a good routine

Squats and deadlifts work the hamstrings plenty. Also, after 4-8 weeks, I'd recommend rotating the exercises. So if you do normal deadlifts this cycle, you could do stiff-leg deadlifts next cycle.

Firstly you have put front squats which shifts the focus almost entirely onto the quads. Deads is not enough hamstring work to counter the amount of focus you have put on the quads with front squats IMO

Deadlifts and squats work your lower back quite thoroghly. Your observation befuddles me.

Again you have put front squats which eliminates almost all the posterior chain from the exercise. The lower back is one of the strongest and most important muscles in the body and IMO and from personal experience i have found and advise that deads alone is not enough for the lower back.

Bench presses and dips??? The last time I checked these were probably the best chest mass builder there are. Again, your observation befuddles me.

Please don't edit your posts to change the tricep dips to parallel dips for chest. Im not stupid, but you must think i am if you think i don't notice these things. They were orginally posted as tricep dips and therefore db press, IMO, is not enough for chest. Don't make me out to be some kind of fool.

The whole point of a more total body oriented workout is to work many muscle groups on the same day. Regarding effectiveness, I've seen many guys get huge on a program like this. So, I can only speak from 20 years of experience in strength training and bodybuilding.

Fine, but why would any one do over head presses before deads???? Deads are a far more demanding exercise which also have a much greater anabolic effect so it is only logical that they be done first. This can also be said for (what you have now put) parallel dips.
#32
DaveH
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 10:31:38 (permalink)
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Hi Ozzy,

I think I remember Frankie saying in another post that Tricep Dips are a waste of time. He meant the ones where you use 2 benches. In another post I seem to remember him saying that Tricep Dips he means parallel bar dips but in a more upright position shifting the focus to the tri's primarily and chest secondary.

I think there is a wording problem on this issue.

#33
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 10:59:10 (permalink)
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Hi Dave

He definately had tricep dips (didn't mention whether or not it was parallel or bench). The disagreement here is not the different forms of tricep dips but the variation from dips for triceps and dips for chest as he is now claiming that he has dips and bench for chest. He had dips for triceps down originally and after my initial post changed to just dips, implicating dips for chest to make me look foolish.

You can see he editted the original post after i posted and before he responded.

Would you like me to get the initial post recovered for evidence????
#34
Skrewdriver
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 11:07:41 (permalink)
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Frankie definitely stated "Tricep Dips" - I remember it myself.

Personally I read "Tricep Dips" to mean "Parallel Bar Dips", and I'm sure Frankie edited this to avoid confusion and not to make Ozzy look foolish. I would credit Frankie with a lot more intelligence than to play silly school boy games like that.

I have noticed too that Ozzy disagrees with a lot of Frankie's posts, although I'm sure it's not personal. I enjoy reading both Frankie and Ozzy's posts and when too experienced and knowledgable people disagree it makes for a great discussions, as an awful lot of knowledge spills out as a result.
#35
DaveH
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 11:46:48 (permalink)
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Hi Ozzy,

No need for evidence mate, I know it said Tricep Dips, you're right. I have a printout from the original post. I interpretted it as Parallel Dips as I believe Frankie does not like Tricep Dips as I read in another one of his posts.
#36
Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 11:50:10 (permalink)
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ozzy,
i am currently following a routine i devised my self and is sort of similar in the way it works
basically:
day#1=strength
overhead squats
1arm barbell snatch
dips
chins
grip work

day#2=conditioning
turkish get-ups
farmers walks
side bends
etc etc etc

LINK TO ACTUAL WORKOUT IN MY ABOVE POST

and have found it works fine, to check my progress i did some max triples on the deadlift yeaterday and it had gone up 7.5kg in the month or so i have beeen following it.

i am not defending FNY's routine per se, nor am i attacking you. but am stating that whole body workouts are pretty damned good on the whole if you can guage your recovery right, you can spend more time under more weight than on any other routine i can think of.

rob
#37
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 12:42:20 (permalink)
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Rob

I have no beef what so ever with full body workouts, in fact i like them. Im just saying that i think this one is poor.
#38
Five_Magics
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 12:45:06 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by ozzy
i just don't think this is a good routine



I have been using this routine for a month and have made decent gains in both strength and mass. It is a good routine.



quote:
Originally posted by ozzy
Fine, but why would any one do over head presses before deads???? Deads are a far more demanding exercise which also have a much greater anabolic effect so it is only logical that they be done first.


Peforming military presses before deadlifts has worked well for me. I had reached a point where I could no longer add weight to my military press, but by prioritising the exercise I have been able to add 7.5 kg to the lift in 3 weeks.
#39
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 12:49:41 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Five_Magics

quote:
Originally posted by ozzy
i just don't think this is a good routine



I have been using this routine for a month and have made decent gains in both strength and mass. It is a good routine.

Please don't fabricate, he only posted the routine on 24th Jan 2004 which, by my calendar, is only 2 weeks ago.



quote:
Originally posted by ozzy
Fine, but why would any one do over head presses before deads???? Deads are a far more demanding exercise which also have a much greater anabolic effect so it is only logical that they be done first.


Peforming military presses before deadlifts has worked well for me. I had reached a point where I could no longer add weight to my military press, but by prioritising the exercise I have been able to add 7.5 kg to the lift in 3 weeks.

Great, how much less are you deadlifting?


#40
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