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Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY

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Author
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 12:50:53 (permalink)
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And i would also like to point out that 2 weeks is not enough time to justify a routine. It takes months to see any noticeable difference from a routine.
#41
Five_Magics
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 12:54:27 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by ozzy

Great, how much less are you deadlifting?



My deadlift has increased at the same rate as the military press. 7.5 kg.
#42
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 12:57:17 (permalink)
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COnsidering you fabricated about the length of time you have been on the routine...........
#43
Five_Magics
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 13:11:34 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by ozzy

COnsidering you fabricated about the length of time you have been on the routine...........



I am not impressed by your attitude. It is needlessly aggressive. My intention was to relate my relatively short experience of the routine to users of this forum. I did not expect to be accused of deceit.

This routine is similar to one posted by JohnnyFive a few weeks ago. Although I may not have been on this exact routine for a month, I have used a routine that consists of 4 compound exercises, performed in 3 sets of 5 reps for about 3 weeks.



#44
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 15:39:49 (permalink)
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Ozzy:

You are correct that I edited my original post. I mistakenly put "Tricep Dips" instead of just "Dips". I was copying and pasting from another document I had written and forgot to delete the word, which I realized later. That being said, any time you dip, you work your triceps and chest very hard, so it's really irrelevant.

Any time one posts a routine it is meant as a guideline, not to be followed to the letter of the law. For a leg exercise, you could do front squats, back squats, or overhead squats. Likewise, you could do dumbbell or barbell military presses. Or you could do normal deadlifts, stiff leg deadlifts, or rack pulls. I will edit my original post to make this clearer.

Before you judge my routines Ozzy, I have used this particular routine with several football players and seen them add 15 to 25 pounds over a year or two, unassisted. I only post what I have seen work in my experience in football and as a gym owner. I don't give opinions based on theory, books, magazines, or the opinions of others, which is what many "experts" here on MT seem to do.
#45
ozzy
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 16:04:01 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankie NY

Ozzy:
I don't give opinions based on theory, books, magazines, or the opinions of others, which is what many "experts" here on MT seem to do.



If you are refering to me as an expert and one who post these routines then i think that you need to review your statement. I don't post routines, i purely comment on others that are posted (bar my routine in the westside article which is a tried and tested and well proven rountine). I don't claim to be an expert, but i have been training long enough and used enough routines in my time to pass judgement on what i think will work and what won't.

Your point about dips working the chest is semi valid. Bench dips will hardly hit the chest, if at all, and parallel dips will more so depending on your form (if parallel dipping for triceps then the chest recruitment is minimal, however). But when i posted my original opinion your post stated tricep dips advocating the emphasis as a tricep exercise not a chest exercise, hence my comment of insufficent chest work.
#46
Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 20:04:28 (permalink)
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quote:
Rob

I have no beef what so ever with full body workouts, in fact i like them. Im just saying that i think this one is poor.


ha ha..dread to think what you make of mine then mate ;)
rob
#47
ad19
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 21:15:57 (permalink)
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DING DING.. oh, there goes end of round one, lads, back to your corners! i love a good discussion! ok here goes, DING DING, round two!......................................................................................!
#48
Chez
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 21:44:07 (permalink)
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I don't want to get in the way of this verbal fist fight but can I ask a question about this routine?

Would clean and press be okay instead of doing power cleans and OHP separately? if I did this would it be good idea to introduce another excercise also! maybe shrugs? as I don't really clean enough to hit my traps that well at the moment?
#49
Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 21:48:00 (permalink)
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mate, if you are cleaning and pressing [both parts of that hit the traps hard, so thats twice in one lift!!!], you really DONT need shrugs.
rob
#50
Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 21:49:22 (permalink)
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and if you don't clean enough to hit your traps you should stick with the deadlift for now, get the weight up then think about changing.
rob
#51
Chez
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 21:59:43 (permalink)
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quote:
and if you don't clean enough to hit your traps you should stick with the deadlift for now, get the weight up then think about changing.


Rob, thanks for your reply, but I Don't quite understand your logic here?

I have been deadlifting for ages! and am reasonably good at it
5x5 @ 140kg & body weight 83kg.

However I have only very recently started any sort of cleaning movement (as I thought it was time for some variation) and hence am only moving around relatively light weights.

Keeping on dead lifting for another 12 weeks isn't going to me get up to clean and press weight that will really hit my traps hard, is it? only starting lightly with clean and press and IMPROVING will do that!
#52
Robert
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/04 22:11:42 (permalink)
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basically my logic is this:

the clean and press is a technical movement. and you are a rare breed in that you are [very sensibly] starting light on the clean and its derivatives. but,

i too pull 140kg on the DL and only weigh about 150lbs, less than 11.5stone!! and from past experince i can say if hitting the traps is your goal, then sticking with deadlifts would be a good idea, but, if you want to move over to powerful olympic movements like the clean, clean and jerk, clean and press, hang clean, high pull...the list goes on... then shrugging is not going to be as benifical as say, power hang cleans.

i did not mean any offense or condecendence<<sp? in my posts, merely that, in my experince [IME], shrugs are useless, and in my opinion [IMO] you would do better to stick with deadlifts, or do power cleans and push press/split jerk, and if you still want an assistance/auxillary exersize that focuses on the traps then try anything except shrugs.

hope that makes sense/helps better explain my pooint of view.
rob
#53
Five_Magics
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/05 15:51:25 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by Muscle Croc
I make this as very weak arm work, especially triceps, and a back thats gonna be knackered!



Perhaps you should give the routine a go. Only then will you realise the extent to which the arms are "worked." A combination of military press, deadlifts, dips and pull ups (as in workout 2), if performed with heavy weight and proper form, will provide plenty of "work" for the arms. The same can be said of the bench press, rows and curls in workout 1.


quote:
Originally posted by Muscle Croc
Also the chest spread over 2 days silly no?



Personally I feel that this may be beneficial. Before I started this routine I was using the 5x5 routine with two chest exercises in one workout. I found that the exercise performed second would progress at a lesser rate than the exercise performed first. By performing one chest exercise in each work out I have managed to increase the weight equally for both exercises each week; something I could not do on the 5x5 workout.

#54
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/05 16:38:24 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by Muscle Croc

Barbell Rows? Bentover rows this means?


Yes.

quote:

I make this as very weak arm work, especially triceps, and a back thats gonna be knackered!


Military presses, bench press, and dips are the best tricep builders there are. If you do these exercises, you will build big triceps. Deadlifts, rows, chins, and barbell curls were all pretty good bicep builders the last time I checked. Your observation makes no sense.

Of course there's more volume for back. It's a much bigger and more complex muscle.

quote:

Also the chest spread over 2 days silly no?


The whole point of a more total body oriented workout is that work is spread out over more days instead of concentrated on one day. This works better for some people. Others gain better with a lot of volume for a given muscle with less frequency.

quote:

Think im with ozzy here, was all set to give this a go but its just too mixed up IMHO?


It's supposed to be "mixed up". That's how total body workouts are. If you think the routine is mixed up because in workout 2 you begin with military presses instead of deadlifts, then you're mistaken. Almost everyone's universal weakness is their overhead strength and shoulder development. I want you to devote all your fresh energy to overheads. You don't always have to deadlift or squat first despite what your mother told you. Learn to think out of the box a little.

quote:

Thoughts? Will add i do not want too much heavy leg work, my legs are natuarlly well built and believe me, full blown work leg workout leaves them looking obscene jeans are unwearable, legs just look out of proportion.. good thing i guess!



Not training legs is not a good idea. You create strength imbalances in your body and increase your chances for injury.
#55
shreklikedave
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/05 22:50:37 (permalink)
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Do your squats!!

I think the routine looks good.

In fact any routine that covers the basic movements and allows for sufficient recovary is good. Personal choices regarding exercise selection and order depend a large part on the individual , there strengths, weaknesses and goals.
#56
Dano
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/05 23:07:24 (permalink)
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Im not taking sides with anyone or any certain routine in this post but too many people are brainwashed thinking that training with splits is the only way to train. Even in the power/strength forum 90% of the routines that are posted by people for comments say they want to focus on strength alone and their routine is usually still in a form of a split like chest/shoulder/tri----back/bi----and legs.

Im not saying anything is wrong with this because there isnt anything at all but the weightlifting world has become so narrow minded when setting up a routine that they think if you do rows on the same day as bench you have committed the ultimate wrong in weightlifting.

I agree that this routine might not be in the best interest if you are focused on a few certain lifts that you want to increase. Although if you are looking for a good total body routine that will add mass all over this is a great routine IMO.

#57
Skrewdriver
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/10 10:51:39 (permalink)
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Hi Frankie,

which would be the better way to perform the 5x5 bench press out of either of the following:

A) 5 reps x 85Kg, 5 reps x 87.5Kg, 5 reps x 90Kg, 5 reps x 90Kg, 3 reps 90Kg

Or

B) 5 sets of 5 reps at 87.5Kg

Reason I ask is that I have been performing 5 x 5 more similar to A. Am I wrong to do this? Shall I stick to the same weight until I can get a full 5x5 before moving on?

Two reasons I have been doing it like "A" is because (even though I warm up with 30% and 50% of my max (plus pressups, rowing machine etc) I still feel more comfortable slowly putting the weight up to my 5RM. Second reason is that I have been thinking that the more weight I can push the better off i'll be. But I suppose this like I have been negleting volume to a degree and have ended up failing.

I'm having a week off at the moment, and am considering your second Mass Building routine when I return, in which case I'll only be doing 3 work sets.

Best regards.

PS, I posted this question in this thread not only to bump it, but your original 5x5 one is getting huge.

#58
Frankie NY
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/10 17:28:59 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by Skrewdriver

Two reasons I have been doing it like "A" is because (even though I warm up with 30% and 50% of my max (plus pressups, rowing machine etc) I still feel more comfortable slowly putting the weight up to my 5RM.


The problem is that your "warmup sets" are way too light. 30% of your working weight will do nothing. The reason that your work sets feel so heavy is that your heaviest warmup set is only 50% of your working weight. That's a huge difference between your second warmup set and your working weight.

Do one warmup set at 50% or 60% of your working weight and another at 75% or 80% of your working weight. Once you make this change, I think you'll find that your working weight feels much more manageable.

I like option B more.
#59
Skrewdriver
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RE: Another Mass Building Program from Frankie NY 2004/02/11 09:42:35 (permalink)
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I'll do as you suggested regards the warm up, I'll also make sure I get 5x5 (or 3x5 on this routine) at the same weight before adding more.

Many thanks for your help Frankie.

#60
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