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Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate.

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2014/10/31 19:19:03 (permalink)

Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate.

In the 70's, low fat diets were the craze. People were hesitant that fat on the lips was ultimately fat on the hips and so everyone was eating cereal, pancakes, waffles etc for breakfast and as a result the society was getting more and more obese. Fast forward to 2014 and there are countless studies debunking the "Fats are bad for you myth" and so more and more people have started to eat a lot more of the stuff which brings me to the thread title; High Fats or High CHO for breakfast?
 
Scientifically there's not much on the subject, with most reporting that it doesn't really make a difference and ultimately the be all end all is calories. There was a lab report discussed on a podcast I was listening to the other day that claimed a PRO+FAT breakfast was inferior to PRO+CHO, claiming the former enabled metabolic flexibility to respond to CHO later in the day. Subjects also had lower BF%. Subjects who ate a PRO+CHO breakfast on the other hand suffered from increased weight gain, glucose intolerance and other markers of the metabolic syndrome. Overall calories were the same. HOWEVER, what they failed to mention was that this study was based on mice. The conversion of CHO into FAT is abbreviated as DNL. The DNL (de novo lipogenesis) of rodents is about 10 times greater than humans so there are flaws with this study.
 
NOW, Ben Pakulski claims he will never, ever eat CHO at breakfast again. He also claims that in all of his time training himself and others, the most common thing holding people back from achieving their muscle building and fat loss goals is their inability to properly utilise CHO- which leads to poor recovery and increased fat storage. Makes sense. Anyone familiar with serotonin? a relaxation hormone which is increased on CHO consumption. So basically, CHO are self-medicating which is definitely not what you need pre-workout.
 
Personally I have been running with PRO+FAT for quite some time and I genuinely don't think I will ever look back. Whenever I trained with a stomach full of oats, regardless of how long I left it, I'd always feel quite sluggish and my energy levels would peak and plummet- hardly an ideal situation if you were after a performance benefit which I'm sure everyone who trains is after.
 
Anyone want to chirp up with their experiences?

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    makaveli1971 1996
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/10/31 19:46:57 (permalink)
    Protein, carbs and fats are needed IMO.

    If I don't eat oats before I train the workout sucks to some degree.

    Sure you can time your carbs, by not having them in the morning or before training with a carb back loading kind of approach.

    But I find them diets pretty stupid, with the thought of not raising insulin with carbs, yet fats and protein do this any how, with whey even more so than carbs themselves, so that's pretty irrelevant IMO.

    People create these diets just to create a deficit as that's what's needed to lose weight or gain weight be it fat or muscle.

    The timing of your carbs if you're training hard and are pretty active is irrelevant IMO.

    Sure on a rest day you may want to lower them somewhat, but you'll still need some if your goal is to build muscle.

    Too many calories overall makes you fat whether that's protein carbs or fats doesn't really matter.

    And the rise in insulin with a meal of say oats eggs will be pretty minimal I wouldn't be worrying about such rubbish.

    The deficit is what matters.

    And what I would also stress is get your carbs from healthy sources.

    Too many people run these silly diets to think they can eat a tonne of junk carbs.

    It's just pretty silly if you ask me.

    Sure maybe following IF for example with a 16 hour fast or so may help burn a little extra fat, but there's no point just cutting carbs because you're worried about raining insulin when fats and protein already do this.

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    PAGAN
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/10/31 20:35:01 (permalink)
    Good reply from Mak there, pretty much sums up my views too.
     
     

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    The_Lone_Wolf
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/03 10:37:40 (permalink)
    There is a lot of different views out there as to what is the best way forward...
     
    Over time, views and opinions change as we've seen with the trends with nutrition and diet over the years.
     
    It all boils down to finding what works for you. That is the most important part of any jigsaw for those with body composition and training goals. 
     
    Some say carbs are evil, some say fats are evil, some say carbs are fine but have to be timed... The list goes on!
     
    Ben Pakulski, Charles Poliquin, Phil Learney, John Meadows, Layne Norton, John Keifer are respected people in the industry and they all put out some very useful info... But again, they do vary on views.
     
    I'm currently experimenting with some nutritional protocols and still finding my feet. It's all a learning curve, but I do think that some people handle carbs better than others. 

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    WW10
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/03 17:10:22 (permalink)
    Mak; I don't necessarily mean before training. I'm talking about breakfast as your very first meal of the day. The same podcast claimed they followed a study where overweight policemen/women were fed carbs either post-lunch or spread throughout the day (breakfast, lunch & dinner) and they found that the timing can actually alter your hormonal patters (leptin, adiponectin etc) which typically peak during early morning. They figured that if you can push your adiponectin peak levels towards lunch time by having the majority of your carbs at night you can actually alter your hormones. For example, adiponectin (protein based hormone) is higher while you're awake throughout the lunch period so you might be likely to eat less which is ideal for weight loss, right?
     
    I appreciate that I'm really getting down to the nitty gritty now, and I'm not saying what I've typed above is accurate, it's just findings I came across to help me understand why more and more people are starting to go down the FAT & PRO route. I also appreciate that the art of getting in to shape doesn't have to be this difficult...especially as what you say is right, being in a deficit is really what matters but I'm looking for optimal results here.
     
    As well in regards to performance, especially when training in the AM, it's not what you eat prior to training that provides you with the energy to train it's previously stored energy. Not saying that what you eat pre-workout isn't completely dud but it doesn't provide as much energy as people make out.
     
    As the Wolf says though; everyone is different and that is the be all end all. What works for you etc...

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    makaveli1971 1996
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/03 18:04:35 (permalink)
    Yep and as said the bottom line is calories in vs calories out, the timing is irrelvant imo.
     
    Any deficit you create, be it no carbs at breakfast, or in the morning etc is just creating that deficit you need to create a calorie deficit.
     
    Sure cycling your carbs may help to some extent, but the same will apply in energy in vs energy out.
     
    I wouldn't get to hung up on timings myself, and would certainly opt for healthy choices, especially if cutting.
     
    Sure it may make sense however to eat a little less carbs than you would on a training day compared to a rest day, but then saying that I know some bodybuilders, who do low carb on training days and high carb on rest days, so again it's not that relevant.
     
    You can only experiment and see for yourself, try IF, try carb back loading, carb cycling etc, but do remember there are many other variants, like how hard are you really training, what do you do for work etc etc, that will determine your results.
     
    Also a good article I read on insulin and more below.
     
    http://www.muscleforlife.com/how-insulin-works/

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    Kaneda
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/03 18:09:47 (permalink)
    Interesting thread - tbh though I'm not overly concerned about the results from a group that is overweight (and presumably untrained)
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    The_Lone_Wolf
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/03 18:12:08 (permalink)
    Kaneda
    Interesting thread - tbh though I'm not overly concerned about the results from a group that is overweight (and presumably untrained)


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    Kaneda
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    Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/03 18:16:01 (permalink)
    Sorry bro :(
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    The_Lone_Wolf
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/04 09:57:28 (permalink)
    If I eat carbs at breakfast, I get sleepy not long after. Depending on the type of carb I consume too, they can cause me to feel bloated and sluggish. Also, I never eat carbs and feel ready for a workout either, mentally or physically. 
     
    I used to do the classic Poliquin meat and nut breakfast, and I always felt great on it. That is just me of course. 

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    robert123
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/04 10:48:42 (permalink)
    How much of this though is ran long enough for the body to adapt to the new dietary requirements? I've always found the Paleo diet one which I would love to try but I think after a week or 2 id be dieing for a biscuit lol
     
    I've pretty much stopped eating "breakfast" as such now and im up at least 2 hours before having a protein shake and feel much better for it.
     
    If you could make a clone of yourself and run the same diet (that being the only difference) - one with high carbs and one with high fats it would be great to put an end to the debate. 
     
     
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    westy19
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/04 13:05:15 (permalink)
    quite some time ago i switched to pro + fat breakfast, and have never looked back i always feel much better. 
    On training days i have no carbs(bar when is in veg, nuts, whey etc which don't count) until i start my intra workout shake.  I have no issues with energy for my session etc.
    I do also believe that the leaner you are the better your body reacts to carbs.
     
    If you are lean then i believe timing has less of an impact, but your bf is higher, strategically timing your carbs can be more beneficial.
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    The_Lone_Wolf
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/05 09:48:27 (permalink)
    westy19
     
    I do also believe that the leaner you are the better your body reacts to carbs.
     
    If you are lean then i believe timing has less of an impact, but your bf is higher, strategically timing your carbs can be more beneficial.




    This.
     
    I think this is where the whole carb tailoring and timing was born from... For lean people, they can slam carbs whenever and get results, but fat people, and really fat people are put into the bracket of having poor blood sugar management and poor GSIS.

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    stinking_dylan
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    Re: Breakfast - Hampering Body Composition? Fat v Carbs debate. 2014/11/05 10:19:27 (permalink)
    I prefer PRO+FAT for breakfast unless I'm running.
     
    Not having CHO prior to weight lifting doesn't seem to have any effect (I just go with BCAAs and caffienne and have been doing so for years now), and have my carbs post workout.  I don't even have carbs the night before an am weights session with no issues (thinking of adding some MCT pre weights though).
     
    However, I notice a very different experience when running, especially when the intensity is elevated (fartlek or hill sprints especially).  Which I don't think is suprising as CHO consumption has always been attributed to benefit aerobic threshold activities.
     
    If I'm not training at all, then it's PRO+FAT (eggs, bacon, low carb protein pancakes all being favourites).  Occasionally have some Burgen and PB as a treat or if eating with the kids.

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