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Helpful ReplyHot!Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out

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Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/25 22:57:11 (permalink)
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doc
 
NO NO NO  if your applying that logic Uriel then we should remove the vote to remain , as it would ignore democracy . that vote has already been done and is settled .   If remainers want to vote on how we leave then fair pay

I could see that. See it wouldn't bother me so much on principle if as you say remaining wasn't one of the options because that part has already been decided, but people were given the choice on whether to accept the deal or leave without one (even though the problem remains of how many people voted to leave only because they believed the lies of how great everything would be and there would be no down side).
 
My point is that there is nothing undemocratic about asking the people what they want. Brexiteers are just throwing that word around because they already got what they wanted and don't care what the people have to say about it any more. They wanted to give power to the people while it suited them.
post edited by Uriel - 2018/11/25 22:58:17
Bookerman
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/25 23:06:09 (permalink)
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Uriel
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You can point out A, B and C while keeping a straight face if you can, because you know and I know had the result went the other way you and the other “democrats” 😁 would be silent and no second referendum would be talked about in a month of Sunday’s

You mean exactly like you're doing?
 
Just be honest about it is all I'm asking. You don't want another referendum because you might - and very likely would - lose. The rest are just poor excuses that you wouldn't consider valid if it were the other way around.


My genuine thought on a second ref is that remain will be motivated and leave will drop off dramatically as people think “what’s the point?”. I for one will not vote if it gets rerun, but that’s what remain think they want anyway.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -   George Orwell
GOVINDA
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/25 23:15:02 (permalink)
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Bookerman
Uriel
GOVINDA
You can point out A, B and C while keeping a straight face if you can, because you know and I know had the result went the other way you and the other “democrats” 😁 would be silent and no second referendum would be talked about in a month of Sunday’s

You mean exactly like you're doing?
 
Just be honest about it is all I'm asking. You don't want another referendum because you might - and very likely would - lose. The rest are just poor excuses that you wouldn't consider valid if it were the other way around.


My genuine thought on a second ref is that remain will be motivated and leave will drop off dramatically as people think “what’s the point?”. I for one will not vote if it gets rerun, but that’s what remain think they want anyway.


Indeed, you’d think history would show them what’s around the corner.

Alt er mulig
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 06:55:33 (permalink)
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Uriel
doc
 
NO NO NO  if your applying that logic Uriel then we should remove the vote to remain , as it would ignore democracy . that vote has already been done and is settled .   If remainers want to vote on how we leave then fair pay

I could see that. See it wouldn't bother me so much on principle if as you say remaining wasn't one of the options because that part has already been decided, but people were given the choice on whether to accept the deal or leave without one (even though the problem remains of how many people voted to leave only because they believed the lies of how great everything would be and there would be no down side).
 
My point is that there is nothing undemocratic about asking the people what they want. Brexiteers are just throwing that word around because they already got what they wanted and don't care what the people have to say about it any more. They wanted to give power to the people while it suited them.


There is when its a black and white questions , we are taking years of deliberations over something that was quite clear nobody wanted , we wanted to be attached to the EU as Canada is , no special deals, no open door immigration , there were no halfway house options on the ballet , had there had of been and these proposals would have been discussed properly then fair enough , but all they are now is delaying tactics until they can think of another  complicated reasons of why we cant leave on schedule whilst telling us Brexit means Brexit.  The whole gang of them don't want to leave , they are career politicians who have sold the country . And besides what's the point in asking what kind of Brexit people wanted , the EU will not give us anything other than in/out, trade comes with immigration and free movement of people/terrorists. We have already voted for the worst case scenario if your in favour of brexit.
 
I do agree that Corbyn will promise a rehashed 2nd referendum based on these complications only introduced by the political class , when they were explicitly told that Brexit/Leave won the vote , had the people in charge of Brexit listened to the voter we would have already left about 6 months ago . If he does , hes a very dangerous man.
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 07:08:11 (permalink)
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Trident
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 12:45:29 (permalink)
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Uriel
doc
 
NO NO NO  if your applying that logic Uriel then we should remove the vote to remain , as it would ignore democracy . that vote has already been done and is settled .   If remainers want to vote on how we leave then fair pay

I could see that. See it wouldn't bother me so much on principle if as you say remaining wasn't one of the options because that part has already been decided, but people were given the choice on whether to accept the deal or leave without one (even though the problem remains of how many people voted to leave only because they believed the lies of how great everything would be and there would be no down side).
 
My point is that there is nothing undemocratic about asking the people what they want. Brexiteers are just throwing that word around because they already got what they wanted and don't care what the people have to say about it any more. They wanted to give power to the people while it suited them.




'Project fear' has probably scared more people into voting to remain than anything the leave campaign has done to sway people to leave.
 
FFS, it was on par with the nonsensical anti Trump chatter during the US elections.
 
The US was supposed to be at war within weeks, have a crashed economy and be under Martial Law with his first year, if we listened to the shi* being put out in the media. It was all lies and bollox.  Thats why he will walk back in to a second term with higher approval ratings.
 
Unlike Leftie Macron (26% Ouch)
 
It was just the same with 'remain'.
 
Not a chance on Earth that another vote would be cast if the 'remain' had won.  It would have been laughed at to suggest we have another vote to leave 2 years later.
 
We have not even left yet and the Socialists are spouting how bad its going to be.
 
Just like they warned us that if the UK did not adopt the Euro then  then the pound would sink to bankruptcy levels without trace.
 
Another piece of bollox the UK public stood up against and were proven right.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
 
 
Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 13:09:56 (permalink)
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"Project fear" is just your pet name for the inconvenient truth. It was said that leaving the EU would have a negative impact on the economy, which it already has - growth has already been below what was expected pre referendum, the pound is still in the gutter compared to pre referendum values, every economist across the board agrees that the different Brexit options on the table only change how much the economy will be hit, there is no scenario where it's better off, not on the short/medium term at least. Only the Boris Jonhsons and Nigel Farages of the world would even try to argue that leaving the EU will impact the UK's economy negatively.
 
Many of the other issues will still be proven right when the UK finally leaves. It was said the UK needs migrants, they are a huge part of the work force especially in some key areas like the NHS, which is true and no brits won't just fill those positions, brits don't want those jobs or aren't qualified for them, there's no queue of people for those jobs where the migrants are cutting in front of the brits. It was said you need an agreement for air travel or UK based airlines will just not be able to fly to Europe, which is also true you need a deal or you have to start arranging charters from scratch for all flights to and from the continent. That's months out of business for british airlines, they will either go bankrupt or the UK taxpayer will shoulder the burden of keeping them afloat. The car industry is extremely competitive and with paying tariffs to sell to the EU the UK's car industry is pretty much done for, which is not true the other way around EU manufacturers can survive without selling cars in Britain. The list of very real problems to the UK's economy after leaving the EU goes on and on.
 
The UK can never be better off economically once it leaves. You need the trade deal to a bit worse off, without the deal it'll be a lot worse. Maybe if the economy is completely restructured and you manage to increase exports to non-EU countries several times over you'll be better off, but that's something that's not happening in under 20 years at least, and between now and then people still need to eat and pay their bills.
post edited by Uriel - 2018/11/26 13:21:12
Trident
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 13:38:54 (permalink)
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The UK is thinking of the long term as thats what we will be out for, not a short stay.  We will have problems in the short term, but thats to be expected given that the establishment is doing everything it can to make life hard.
 
There is plenty of talent outside the EU, we will cope Im sure.
 
Theres plenty of trade to be had outside the EU too.
Trident
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 14:21:19 (permalink)
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I see they have started pushing projected 'costs' for leaving.
 
An orderly 'no deal' could cost the UK £140 Billion by 2030!!
 
Shock horror!
 
No mention that Foreign aid will cost the UK £14 Billion in 2019 and will rise over the next 11 years.
 
Problem solved.
Rasputin
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 14:30:25 (permalink)
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All bollocks and bluster. Fed up of hearing about this wonderful deal May has got. It’s **** house and frankly if we had just said we are leaving going to wto and **** your costs we would have had it done by now.

I guess it’s a blessing in disguise that cabinet is so broken it won’t get voted through as we will end up where we should have been a year ago. Typical civil servings wating time and money.

All this has gone to show is that politicians in every country are shysters and there’s never ever going to be any chance of getting 28 states on the same page because of different social and economic backgrounds... what a surprise hardly Nobel prize winning **** is it.

Ra Ra Rasputin lover of the Russian Queen, Ra Ra Ra Rasputin Russia's greatest love machine (Allegedly)
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/26 15:42:38 (permalink)
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Uriel
"Project fear" is just your pet name for the inconvenient truth. It was said that leaving the EU would have a negative impact on the economy, which it already has - growth has already been below what was expected pre referendum, the pound is still in the gutter compared to pre referendum values, every economist across the board agrees that the different Brexit options on the table only change how much the economy will be hit, there is no scenario where it's better off, not on the short/medium term at least. Only the Boris Jonhsons and Nigel Farages of the world would even try to argue that leaving the EU will impact the UK's economy negatively.
 
Many of the other issues will still be proven right when the UK finally leaves. It was said the UK needs migrants, they are a huge part of the work force especially in some key areas like the NHS, which is true and no brits won't just fill those positions, brits don't want those jobs or aren't qualified for them, there's no queue of people for those jobs where the migrants are cutting in front of the brits. It was said you need an agreement for air travel or UK based airlines will just not be able to fly to Europe, which is also true you need a deal or you have to start arranging charters from scratch for all flights to and from the continent. That's months out of business for british airlines, they will either go bankrupt or the UK taxpayer will shoulder the burden of keeping them afloat. The car industry is extremely competitive and with paying tariffs to sell to the EU the UK's car industry is pretty much done for, which is not true the other way around EU manufacturers can survive without selling cars in Britain. The list of very real problems to the UK's economy after leaving the EU goes on and on.
 
The UK can never be better off economically once it leaves. You need the trade deal to a bit worse off, without the deal it'll be a lot worse. Maybe if the economy is completely restructured and you manage to increase exports to non-EU countries several times over you'll be better off, but that's something that's not happening in under 20 years at least, and between now and then people still need to eat and pay their bills.


We haven't left yet , the doom and gloom was already underway whether we voted leave or remain a democratic vote cannot make you solvent when your bankrupt, the £ has devalued a good 90% since joining the EU and 40% in 2008 alone , yet these inconvenient truths get brushed under th carpet , broken window fallacy over and over of looking at what is seen and possibly lost and ignoring what is unseen and opportunities that haven't yet come to fruition. The UK as a net contributor is mathematically better of from not being In the EU , your argument is along the lines of the US is worse off without slaves .

yes there will be short term pain and there will always be things you can point to to say it was a bad idea, but ffs let's leave and let that play out first , the people who said the eec and eu would be a disaster 40 years ago where right. the EU is an undemocratic cartel who waist resources by the bucket , that path only leads one way, you should be thankful that some people took a stand to do what's right
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 13:48:30 (permalink)
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https://news.sky.com/story/may-and-corbyn-agree-to-live-tv-debate-but-on-different-channels-11566716
 
Two remainers who are going to argue over which version of Brexit is going to be the least disastrous , strawman city. Two people on the same side trying to brainwash the public before they attempt to offer a second referendum.
Dr Z
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 13:59:46 (permalink)
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I see we are on to Part 2 of Project Fear, with all the guff from that Canadian idiot.  I mean, come on? 
When someone presents some scenarios, and they admittedly present the worst case scenario for one option, and the best case scenarios for the other options, surely anyone with half a brain can see they are being deliberately led (or perhaps misled?). 

No, Not that Dr Z.  Please don't bother PM'ing me for 'Price Lists'  You have the wrong guy.  
Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 14:43:09 (permalink)
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doc
the £ has devalued a good 90% since joining the EU and 40% in 2008 alone , yet these inconvenient truths get brushed under th carpet

We've talked about this. This is only because you can't distinguish between inflation and devaluation and still think the pound has lost value because it doesn't buy as much gold, that's some very alternative economics. The GBP was very strong against the Euro and USD right up until the result of the Brexit vote. 
Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 14:44:04 (permalink)
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This has reached a point where whenever I see "project fear" I just hear "fake news". Just a handy way of dismissing facts you don't like.
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 15:13:02 (permalink)
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Uriel
doc
the £ has devalued a good 90% since joining the EU and 40% in 2008 alone , yet these inconvenient truths get brushed under th carpet

We've talked about this. This is only because you can't distinguish between inflation and devaluation and still think the pound has lost value because it doesn't buy as much gold, that's some very alternative economics. The GBP was very strong against the Euro and USD right up until the result of the Brexit vote. 


so houses and food/energy didn't go up then ? just gold ?
 
I can distinguish between inflation and devaluation very clearly , your comparing 1 currency in free fall against other currencies in free fall, these aren't good benchmarks, we did talk about it before but you dont understand enough to debate.  
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/recession/3255594/Pound-suffers-worst-fall-in-41-years.html
 
hint , this was pre brexit . That's the reason everything has gone up in cost , above RPI/CPI =devaluation.
 
this is quite common with QE and money printing , only now they've got someone else to blame for there incompetence and re-moaners cling to the hope that is was caused by brexiteer's  it wasn't this is fundamental maths/defecit spending without proportional increases in taxation.   the FED and ECB are also engaging in QE devaluation they are just devaluing at different times and speeds.  So what if the pound was stronger against the dollar ? the fed have increased interest rates in 2016 making the dollar stronger .
 

 
This isnt based on fundamentals , just a few people in the back room trying to organised the worlds biggest economy , this would see people move out of sterling into dollars for a safer haven , just based on getting a higher return , this has happened since banking began , its not a brexit issue.
There is also a reason people use the saying good as gold, gold standard because its the only thing that has retained its value in 5000 years and is the best long term indicator of the value of your money , if the pound was loosing value because the dollar was gaining value I would be more agreeable , but prices are rising in the US on pretty much everything, same as the EU.
Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 17:50:37 (permalink)
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Your argument is the 2008 financial crisis? How do you compare a recession across all developed countries with a drop in value of one particular currency? The 2008 crash had nothing do with brexit or pounds or dollars or the EU it was a completely separate issue, in fact originating in the USA because of cowboy investment bankers and being outside the EU wouldn't have helped the UK escape it.
 
Your point about the pound devaluing 90% since joining the EU makes absolutely no sense. Yes you need a lot more GBP to buy a given amount of gold, but the average brit can buy a lot more gold with his annual income today than he could in 1973. One pound today is worth a lot less than it was then, but you earn a disproportionately higher amount of pounds through your work than you would have back then. That's inflation, not devaluation, and you're better off for it not worse. Purchasing power today is so much higher than it was back then it's not even comparable, that's why people have so much stuff that we're shipping it over to China when we're done with it so we don't end up buried in waste, there used to be one car per family if you earned a decent wage now there's often one car per person in the household.
post edited by Uriel - 2018/11/29 17:54:10
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 19:21:30 (permalink)
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Uriel
Your argument is the 2008 financial crisis? How do you compare a recession across all developed countries with a drop in value of one particular currency? The 2008 crash had nothing do with brexit or pounds or dollars or the EU it was a completely separate issue, in fact originating in the USA because of cowboy investment bankers and being outside the EU wouldn't have helped the UK escape it.
 
Your point about the pound devaluing 90% since joining the EU makes absolutely no sense. Yes you need a lot more GBP to buy a given amount of gold, but the average brit can buy a lot more gold with his annual income today than he could in 1973. One pound today is worth a lot less than it was then, but you earn a disproportionately higher amount of pounds through your work than you would have back then. That's inflation, not devaluation, and you're better off for it not worse. Purchasing power today is so much higher than it was back then it's not even comparable, that's why people have so much stuff that we're shipping it over to China when we're done with it so we don't end up buried in waste, there used to be one car per family if you earned a decent wage now there's often one car per person in the household.


Its well understood that living standards are declining , we now need two workers per family to make ends meet despite massive advances in technology . my argument isn't the financial crisis , we are always in crisis , we are still in crisis the banks are not fundamentally sound , they issue currency , control is supply and value and your pound losing value isn't inflation its devaluation , the banks charter was to give price stability and increase the supply of currency to match the extra goods and services in the economy, then it was changed to be 2% inflation target(even though it got to 4-10%) , QE and money printing into a recession is the deliberate practice of cheapening your currency thus devaluation (whilst being inflationary) inflation in practice should be to match extra goods/services/increase in currency and give stable prices to offset deflation and not enough currency being available and people having to spend 0.00001 pence for goods . If you work out the % of your wage to shopping/heating/energy/mortgage bill it's never been higher despite massive advances in technology, cheaper energy, better radiators, white goods, more efficient cars. My argument for the pound losing 90% in value since joining the EU makes absolute sense unless your trying not to see it, earn £10 in 1973 put it under your mattress and go to spend it now or the day before the referendum , you'll see that it buys approx 90% less than it did , despite saying on the paper I promise to pay the bearer the value of £10 so yes its been devalued , you can't print commodities so these are much better benchmarks for value , although they try with futures and paper contracts.
 
You can buy less gold today than in 1973 , but depends on how you calculate it , we have more tax to pay now so less disposable income, capital gains taxes , paper gold that doesn't exist ( suppressing the price and making it look cheap) Goldman sachs where leveraged 66/1 on physical to paper gold ETFs , meaning that if everyone went in to collect they wouldn't be able too, comex shortages , so the real price will only become clear when there is a crisis and everyone demands physical , if this happens you will be able to buy a lot lot lot less than in 1973 , the points you have made are valid though and they where valid pre and post brexit , not sure why your are trying to tie the two together ? everything your are blaming on brexit has happened a hundred times before and after brexit correlation isn't causation. It correlates far better with deficit spending , wars and money supply. I disagree purchasing power today is higher , its lower and the country subsidies current spending with huge public and personal debts. In a stable economy things would naturally get cheaper , but if your young theres 2 things you are likely to buy , a degree which has never been more over priced and is a greater cost % than ever and a house which the same applies , which is why you have more 20+ living at home with their parents, but yeah if you look at a computer/mobile phones then its got a lot cheaper , but expansions in technology explain this . 
Manuforti
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 22:14:37 (permalink)
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Hmmm. I haven't been on site for a while and literally popped in to see what doc was arguing about Brexit.

So... The brexiteers did lie. Aaron banks is a **** and has admitted spreading untruths. The Brexiteers secretarys have all been criminally stupid,, lazy and wouldn't survive an 8 hour shift in any place I've ever worled. I think where Aaron banks donation money came from is irrelevant unless it was russia imp I'd let him off with that. I understood why the working classes voted for brexit. Especially white British working class boys. In our world where you are told you carry the guilt of white privilege while simultaneously being the least likely group to get a university education you may as well smash the walls and hope Camelot gets built. Poor souls don't understand whichever economic systems are built they will be on the bottom of it. I even understand why economically conservative Asians voted for it. To suffer real racism propping up manufacturing and saving for years to start a business then to compete with the next waves in immigration is not in your interest. I never understood why posho's voted for it. Now I do, Jacob Rees mogg is a charlatan disaster capitalist hoping to harvest the smashed remains of our country dressed up as Jeeves and Wooster.

Boris Johnson is playing brinksman ship with his own party and wouldn't accept the premiership during the transmission period if you put a gun to his head.

I think Jeremy Corbyn ( who I like and think isn't half as radical as people think, he's just labour ) is now playing a very dangerous game. I think he may well force no deal brexit and hope the aftermath will destroy the Tories for generations. Sadly I think he may believe in the long run this will be worth it.
Manuforti
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/11/29 22:15:55 (permalink)
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Oh, and I agree with doc, two adults now pretty much need to work full time to pay rent. Cheap goods comes from buying **** made by child slaves in China and the slaves picking our veg.
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