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Helpful ReplyHot!Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out

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doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/07 18:17:38 (permalink)
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CitizenKane
Playing devil’s advocate here as an impartial outsider:

I can understand why a lot of people would be annoyed (to put it mildly) with another referendum. However, if the argument against another referendum is that we must respect the democratic will of the people, then what exactly is the problem with holding another one? If the will of the people continues to be to leave, then that will be demonstrated by another referendum, no?

as PB sys infinite referendum's/elections , then of course are the people running the gov actually legitimate enough to ask for one or be PM's ( they got less votes that people wanting to leave the EU)
 
They haven't delivered on there manifesto , we haven't left yet , they are utterly incompetent , the PM has a massive conflict of interests . What your describing sounds like democracy will be upheld as long as its what the elites want , which is a dictatorship. If we followed what the joiners or remainers have done , it would be like saying you can have another referendum in 2065 , which I wouldn't be a fan off  , it should be at least 8 years after we have actually left ( 2 successive governments ) who would actually have to try and make it work .
 
are you not suspicious that before we have even left they are suggesting a fresh referendum ? If they pull this off then kiss what freedoms you have left goodbye .
oasis
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/07 18:23:43 (permalink)
+1 (1)
This thread is probably bigger now than Bigfellas homemade protein flapjack one, how sad!

It's hard to be humble when I'm so great...

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silent rep
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/07 18:36:37 (permalink)
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oasis
This thread is probably bigger now than Bigfellas homemade protein flapjack one, how sad!




^^X2

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Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/08 00:00:44 (permalink)
+1 (1)
doc If they pull this off then kiss what freedoms you have left goodbye .

You guys always lose at this conspiracy theory line of thought.
 
They talk about a second referendum because they're the Illuminati? Sure there are "elites" trying to sway the direction of the country in a particular way that suits them. There always have been, always will, it's how representative democracy works, every politician wants to pull in a certain direction, the idea is you simply vote for the one what says the'll pull in the direction you agree with.
 
The whole "elites" argument is rubbish. What are the Michael Goves, Boris Johnsons, Nigel Farages and Jacob Rheese-Moggss of the world? Bricklayers? The guys pushing for brexit are all private schooled Oxbridge cronies too. They're not your mates, they don't know your struggles, and I very much doubt they give a **** about whether brexit makes your life better or worse. Stop portraying them as champions of the people, these are wealthy educated "everywheres" who live in large gated properties up some private street you've never been in the posh side of town. They probably weighed the pros and cons and stand to benefit from brexit personally, or they simply hate the EU passionately and irrationally the same way Republicans hate socialism and all the other implications of leaving are just white noise. The economy taking a hit won't mean a lifestyle change for them, they can afford it, they'll never be unemployed, they could still easily live in other countries if they ever wanted to, when you reach a certain level of wealth nearly all the world is a free movement area for you. All the things that could potentially go very wrong with brexit would go wrong for you, not for them.
post edited by Uriel - 2018/12/08 00:08:44
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/08 11:53:15 (permalink)
+2 (2)
Uriel
doc If they pull this off then kiss what freedoms you have left goodbye .

You guys always lose at this conspiracy theory line of thought.
 
They talk about a second referendum because they're the Illuminati? Sure there are "elites" trying to sway the direction of the country in a particular way that suits them. There always have been, always will, it's how representative democracy works, every politician wants to pull in a certain direction, the idea is you simply vote for the one what says the'll pull in the direction you agree with.
 
The whole "elites" argument is rubbish. What are the Michael Goves, Boris Johnsons, Nigel Farages and Jacob Rheese-Moggss of the world? Bricklayers? The guys pushing for brexit are all private schooled Oxbridge cronies too. They're not your mates, they don't know your struggles, and I very much doubt they give a **** about whether brexit makes your life better or worse. Stop portraying them as champions of the people, these are wealthy educated "everywheres" who live in large gated properties up some private street you've never been in the posh side of town. They probably weighed the pros and cons and stand to benefit from brexit personally, or they simply hate the EU passionately and irrationally the same way Republicans hate socialism and all the other implications of leaving are just white noise. The economy taking a hit won't mean a lifestyle change for them, they can afford it, they'll never be unemployed, they could still easily live in other countries if they ever wanted to, when you reach a certain level of wealth nearly all the world is a free movement area for you. All the things that could potentially go very wrong with brexit would go wrong for you, not for them.


 
Nobody mentioned Illuminati , but call it what you will, if you loosing on facts attack the character , your trying to call anyone who wants brexit a flat earth conspiracy theorist who is a bit mental and naive.
The elites in context of what I was saying where the 'unelecteds' and this isn't a conspiracy line of thought , but the elites wanting us to stay in the EU is 100% a conspiracy. If they can get away with not having a democracy for the people then what is stopping them from outright totalitarianism ( which is already happening slowly)? Whether JRM or Boris isn't my mate is not the point , they stand as elected officials and if what they say resonates with me I will support them , there background or wealth isn't really an issue , as it stands in the UK we are all in the top 2% even people on benefits and we won't be affected at all either way if you compare us to a country like Sudan or Syria . The point is do we want a democracy or not ? if we do (which I do) then you must want to see brexit happen and be given a good chance to succeed even if you voted to remain , this issue now is much bigger than the vote itself . Your argument about them not being affected was also said about Hitler/Saddam/Ghadafi/Ceausescu etc etc . Its outright betrayal and treason for the UK, if you want to be in the EU so much why not just move back to mainland europe (serious question)?  
i dont need a Farage or JRM to tell me why the EU is so bad I can see it myself , but they are elected officials so that's who I support , as i've said before JRM has a lot more to lose backing Brexit , he could keep his mouth shut and quietly move up the ranks. But you backing remaining after a democratic vote to leave is on a whole new level of stupidity ,apathy, short sighted and i really don't think you realise of the consequences of being a sheep , you should read more history to see how these kinds of decisions and weak willed people end up , fast forward a few decades and we will end up with a country that resembles South Africa/North Korea. Also just cancel local elections/general elections any kind of voting because the president has been set. With this in place they can just raise taxes to 95% because you can't vote it down , everyone on min wage , food banks, military state  , Marxist EU  where the 'elites' do rather well, the social contract has been broken, an anarchy always follows.
GOVINDA
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/08 12:37:53 (permalink)
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There is no hard left or open push to replace anyone, it’s all in our xenophobic minds.

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Uriel
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/08 12:41:52 (permalink)
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Not attacking the character, only attacking this oddly popular message of dressing everything in modern politics up as a conspiracy when the reality is much more mundane. Yes there are "elites" who want the UK to stay in the EU and are trying to make that happen. And there are also elites who want the UK to leave the EU, pushed and pushed for the referendum and carried out an aggressive and very dishonest campaign full of lies (I believe the technical term is propaganda) to sway the public into voting the way they wanted. By that line of thought the whole vote leave thing is a conspiracy too.
 
We don't live in a direct democracy, it's like nobody remembers that until they don't get what they want, and then suddenly the whole thing is a conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy it's just how it works. And there are plenty of elected officials in the EU (in fact Farage is one of them), and unelected officials in the UK parliament as I've had to point out before. They're legitimate politicians one day and then "elites" and "conspirators" the next when they don't do what you want them to - and I do mean you, because there's plenty of other people who support them. Politics is the art of compromise and no matter how "legitimate" the politicians they will never do everything you want, because there will always be other people whose vote is worth just as much as yours who want the opposite of what you want.
 
I don't back remaining after the vote, I simply don't agree with bull**** arguments full of logic holes like "the will of the people". It was the will of about a quarter of the people, and the whole argument of "the will of the people" is based on the assumption that people aren't allowed to change their minds when presented with new information which is just plain retarded. You're basically saying that politicians should not only be allowed but encouraged to be dishonest and swindle people into voting a certain way, because later when the truth comes out and people realize their mistake they shouldn't be legally allowed to take it back. How very democratic. As I have said I would agree with a second referendum where remaining is not one of the options, the real sticking point that's brought the government to a halt is basically whether or not to accept May's deal, and ultimately there's only two logical democratic options there you either allow the MPs to decide for you (which is their job, not a conspiracy) or put it to a referendum. You might say that "no deal" was implicit in voting to leave in the first place, but that's what you think and you don't have the authority to speak for all the people who voted to leave, many of whom may not want to leave on no deal at all when they were made all sorts of promises during the campaign about how quick and easy a deal with the EU would be that would secure all sorts of rights for them and prevent damage to the economy.
 
Those last few sentences are precisely what I mean by you sliding into just plain tinfoil hat territory to the point where it's just not worth arguing with. The EU is a Marxist state (yeah because those sort of states are known for their extensive legislation in human rights and humanitarian efforts around the world) and if we have a second referendum the UK is on its way to becoming a totalitarian state like NK. Sounds legit mate no fearmongering or "project fear" there.
 
In fact the EU is so horrible that millions of people are trying to get into it every year, and there's a queue of countries trying to join it. Just like North Korea.
post edited by Uriel - 2018/12/08 13:33:51
Rasputin
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/08 16:42:12 (permalink)
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Nearly threw my remote through the tv this morning. Three MPs two labour one Lib holding an event in the libs constituency where 69% votes to leave trying to tell that they now need to push a people’s vote because Brexit can’t be delivered and they were all wrong to do it in the first place. Basically you were too thick to understand the complexities so get online and do as we say....!

Utter ****ing drivel and frankly parking all else aside how on earth can the UK ever be taken seriously again as a nation if we decide actually it’s a big **** up and mistake let’s retract ourselves and sit with our tails between our legs. Absolute joke and why nobody is seriously hammering this drum I do not know. A decision has been made and now we simply must follow it through or we will the laughing stock of the world.

Being labelled cheese eating surrender monkeys like the French and bowing down to a European “superpower” errrr no thanks. Il take my chances with the open market!!!

Absolute disgrace that this simple fact is being overlooked.

Ra Ra Rasputin lover of the Russian Queen, Ra Ra Ra Rasputin Russia's greatest love machine (Allegedly)
Bookerman
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/08 20:55:56 (permalink)
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^^^ I’m hoping the British spirit is genetic and we aren’t cowed as easily as the “normal” Europeans.
I can only imagine the reaction if they keep us in and the EU implodes.
BTW I see the politics of envy being strongly displayed in this thread lately. Quite apt

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -   George Orwell
Trident
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/09 00:56:19 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I see France is doing well under Macron! Another EU success story. Less than 20% approval rating. EU socialism does not work and the far right is gaining ground at a rapid rate. Just look at the Spanish elections. The whole EU sinking ship is going down and Brexit is actually keeping people's minds off this. Macron the 'saviour of Europe' and Trump the 'Idiot' according to the far left. Odd how one has an approval rating over twice as much as the other.
doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/09 15:04:08 (permalink)
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Uriel
 
 
I don't back remaining after the vote, I simply don't agree with bull**** arguments full of logic holes like "the will of the people". It was the will of about a quarter of the people, and the whole argument of "the will of the people" is based on the assumption that people aren't allowed to change their minds when presented with new information which is just plain retarded. 


There is no indication that the will of the people has changed , or any new information has come to light , nothing new has been presented.
 
The tories promised a referendum , no conditions of whether a certain package or deal could be achieved , just a referendum to say we would be out of the EU ( which would mean no deal) Politicians saying its undeliverable are just stalling for time and committing treason.
 
If the Tories didn't believe leaving was a good thing( this is obviously the case) then they shouldn't have promised a referendum , both PM's have been remainers . If they did this you would see UKIP gain a majority and win the general election ( given enough time)
The public have had 40+ years to decide whether the EU is a good thing or  bad thing and whether it be from a dishonest Torie or a UKIP government the referendum was coming and we were always going to vote to leave. not sure why you count a few vested interests losing subsidies and a few undeliverable stories about a deal nobody asked for as 'people changing there minds'
 
In the past 40 years plenty of information has come to light like the EU treaties , over reaches of power  , making countries vote again when they didn't get the result they wanted , the shambolic makeup the the monetary union , the membership fee, the unemployment rate in the member states , technocrats being put in charge of countries to sign of on budgets. Yet we were never offered a referendum , we got from a trade deal to an unelected parliment with no referendum through bribes and small prints , we have been given one chance to vote and we have voted out .  And now your saying people have changed their minds before we have even left ? This is a very one sided blinkered view Uriel and you do seem to be brighter than the words you are typing. I don't think there is any argument that would satisfy you for leaving that you would apply equally to being in there or remaining in the first place , you sound very biased . 
 

 
Can i just remind you this guy offered a referendum , what he said was correct , it's just that he was blatantly lying and this should have seen him jailed for treason .
If anything the referendum should have been carried out and anyone receiving money/funding from the EU shouldn't have been allowed to vote as its a complete conflict of interests and there vote has been bought and paid for, it's a bit like dole scum voting for the party who offer the biggest handouts , while the rest of us have to work extra hours to pay for it .
 
also if people do change their minds , then there's nothing wrong with a second referendum, not saying we should wait 40+ years like we have just now , but at least let a new government run on a platform of brexit and have to make the best f it knowing the need to get re elected(after we have left and weathered the storm).
 
If you had a 2nd referendum where people voted what out  looked like , then roll on the 3rd,4th,5th referendums where they just repeat this whole process of failed negotiations and unachievable , we voted out so we would have a Canada style deal , we can then negotiate from there on trade/free movement( I would guess people would sacrifice a trade deal to get rid of free movement , as in a lot of city's/counties its destroyed the places)
Im all for immigration but not free movement or uncontrolled immigration .
Trident
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/09 17:04:16 (permalink)
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Millions of people are not trying to get into the EU, they are simply trying to get into certain Countries which are in the EU.
 
3 million EU citizens prefer the UK to their own EU homelands.
 
The myth of the EU is that its one big happy union of equals, when its really the strong carrying the weaker and weak.
 
 
Boss Redd
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/09 21:21:43 (permalink)
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doc
Uriel
 
 
I don't back remaining after the vote, I simply don't agree with bull**** arguments full of logic holes like "the will of the people". It was the will of about a quarter of the people, and the whole argument of "the will of the people" is based on the assumption that people aren't allowed to change their minds when presented with new information which is just plain retarded. 


There is no indication that the will of the people has changed , or any new information has come to light , nothing new has been presented.
 




Then why not have a 2nd vote, just to make sure?

I do a lot of push ups and sit ups. And I drink plenty of milk.

doc
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Re: Brexit media fearmongering , In/Out 2018/12/09 23:04:37 (permalink)
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Boss Redd
doc
Uriel
 
 
I don't back remaining after the vote, I simply don't agree with bull**** arguments full of logic holes like "the will of the people". It was the will of about a quarter of the people, and the whole argument of "the will of the people" is based on the assumption that people aren't allowed to change their minds when presented with new information which is just plain retarded. 


There is no indication that the will of the people has changed , or any new information has come to light , nothing new has been presented.
 




Then why not have a 2nd vote, just to make sure?


Kind of defeats the whole object of a referendum that people had 40+years to decide about .It was a simple in out referendum  we voted out , nobody mentioned a deal , this has been a theatre of chaos about brexit/doom as per the whole reason for this thread , creating an impossible situation that cannot be resolved that nobody was concerned about to justify cancelling the whole thing or just getting a 2nd,3rd,4th referendum until they do get the result they want . If we live in a dictatorship then just come clean and ill be an expat. BTW we haven't left yet , so not sure why anyone would change their minds ?  out = any other country that's out , quite simple.   
 
If the EU mafia was removed tomorrow , do you not believe that all of these countries would want to trade with us ? they are an unelected cartel that has hijacked the leadership of these countries , very insidious., that serve no positive purpose .  If we are having a second vote , then it needs to be adopted everywhere , like council elections, general elections , Ice skating, gymnastics , bodybuilding.
 
 
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