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Suspirio
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2015/01/17 01:50:14 (permalink)
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Can doorstaff physically remove customers?

I was in a pub tonight and a guy was acting like a d1ck. He was asked to leave by the doorman but he refused. He was told that he would not be getting served again but he insisted on remaining in the pub. Eventually the police were called who physically ejected him from the premesis. Can anyone think of a good reason why the police were required and why the much bigger doorman did not do it?
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Medic
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Re: Can doorstaff physically remove customers? 2015/01/17 03:38:58 (permalink)
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Getting sued is an issue. When I was a doorman I removed many people. Rarely did it get physical. If it did I didn't go to blows with them usually grabbed them by the trachea and squeezed until their eyes watered then walked them backward to the door.
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Smokey87
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Re: Can doorstaff physically remove customers? 2015/01/17 07:39:58 (permalink)
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Medic
Getting sued is an issue. When I was a doorman I removed many people. Rarely did it get physical. If it did I didn't go to blows with them usually grabbed them by the trachea and squeezed until their eyes watered then walked them backward to the door.
Medic

Doorman did that where i lived. He's know locked up since the guy died.
Would and arm lock not be... safer?
A lot of them get bad press especially where i live there was 3 or 4 incidents like that in the same year. They dont want to touch anyone now to afraid of being sued or going down for manslaughter.
 
I have also seen a guy been grabbed by the throat and marched out. However with his free hand he glassed the bouncer.
Its a shame doorman are there for a reason and are needed. Its the few bad incidents and the few bad doorman who sterotype them and give doorman a bad name. Iv seen dozens giving out first aid and cpr but when you think off doorman you instantly think of the negative. Just liked being a taxi driver something i never want to do.
post edited by Smokey87 - 2015/01/17 07:43:54

 
 
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stevie bully bully
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Re: Can doorstaff physically remove customers? 2015/01/17 08:06:06 (permalink)
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I do the doors now and again....Usually you ask someone to leave and they leave , if they get physical then you would defend yourself and physically remove them....As someone said to much a claim lifestyle now so I'm always hoping they leave on their own accord as a lot of pubs and nightclub owners don't like to call the police as it goes on their record.
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Suspirio
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Re: Can doorstaff physically remove customers? 2015/01/17 08:18:23 (permalink)
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If they get physical then you can defend yourself but what can you do if they simply sit there and refuse to leave? The doorman just looked as though there was really nothing he could do and simply stood there until the police came.
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chris182
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Re: 2015/01/17 08:37:45 (permalink)
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When I was at my clubbing peak, any hassle and two door staff would grab you and cary you out horizontally and use your head to open the door.
I have seen this happen for about ten years, I just assumed it was the same.
Last doorman I had a disagreement with he was being really rude I offered to have a go which he agreed so we started to walk away from he cameras then he ran away.

Lot of respect for most door staff, if I'm asked to leave politely I'll leave instantly without question even if I've done nothing wrong.
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dementia
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Re: 2015/01/17 09:09:31 (permalink)
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Perhaps he was known to them and was a nutter who could handle himself. Bar that i can see no reason not to use force.







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Suspirio
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Re: 2015/01/17 09:53:58 (permalink)
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I don't think that was the case. They didn't know him. It was a group of people and he just had too much to drink. He started to become a pest and began making lewd remarks to the female barstaff. When he was told to leave he shut up but he would not budge. I have never done the doors myself but I have run clubs in the past and back then force would have undoubtedly been used in this instance. However, now that appears to be different. I have no idea how it works these days.
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dementia
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Re: 2015/01/17 10:19:02 (permalink)
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I don't think that was the case. They didn't know him.

 
How come your so sure? Seems to me that your guessing, as "dont think" and "they didn`t" are two separate answers.







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chris182
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Re: 2015/01/17 10:39:26 (permalink)
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I've assumed the wrong thing about someone once, turns out he was one of the biggest know crooks in Manchester and I almost told him to F off.

Maybe they can only use force if their under threat, different in a pub than a nightclub
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Suspirio
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Re: 2015/01/17 11:11:55 (permalink)
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dementia
I don't think that was the case. They didn't know him.

 
How come your so sure? Seems to me that your guessing, as "dont think" and "they didn`t" are two separate answers.



They were middle aged Belgian tourists who when they first entered the pub asked me for directions to St Pauls Cathedral. Just one of them became a twat after a few too many drinks.
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Re: 2015/01/17 11:34:40 (permalink)
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As above fear of losing his licence, discipline from management.
Even if "reasonable force" is used if the guy got injured he could seek legal action.
Too much hassle for the doorman and the club/Pub.
It has certainly changed, I  can remember door men  literally throwing idiots out , Pushing them through the Exit doors out onto their arses. 

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fairhouse
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Re: 2015/01/17 11:47:58 (permalink)
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Still see bouncers taking liberties as regular as ever whenever I'm out. Usually two march them out. However,I saw one chase a guy down the street last year, going round cars and so on like a Benny Hill sketch, finally tripped him and assaulted the guy. Police then arrested the guy that got beat up.
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Re: 2015/01/17 11:54:24 (permalink)
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Not all doormen are trained in approved restraint techniques, so yeah he'd have been leaving himself open to being done for assault if he had laid a hand on the fella without due cause or using one of those techniques. People who get on the way that fella did are usually incapable of seeing themselves in the wrong, even when they sober up the following day. I'd not wanna be a doorman especially in this day and age where it's an increasingly american influenced claim culture.
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Re: 2015/01/17 12:52:06 (permalink)
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Is this what it's come to? Bouncers aren't allowed to bounce? LOL when I was a kid I was once ejected by being used as a human battering ram to open the fire escape with my head...it opened out into an alley so you had to run off quick, they followed through with a shoeing if they could!
 
I'm not saying doormen should use violence as a rule but all this just shows how society is changing and kids have no respect for consequences of their actions.
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Re: 2015/01/17 13:30:46 (permalink)
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I don't squeeze hard enough to collapse the trachea. And there is nothing in their hands at this point. If they refuse to set their drink down and looks like it will be a weapon it gets knocked out of their hand and them grabbed by the throat instantly. To be honest their girlfriend is usually the problem as they try to hit you and are yelling at you the entire time. Hopefully back up has arrived to handle her by this time.
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smuggler
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Re: 2015/01/17 13:39:32 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby stevie bully bully 2015/01/17 14:17:19
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It's all a little bit blown out of proportion these days about how doorman can't use a certain amount of force these days. It's true, in the industry now, there are a lot of workers who are just afraid to get involved, including some that have been doing the job years. It is however, in my opinion being over cautious to an extent, backed up by the fact that every little action you take, you have to be able to justify it, not only to police, but venue managers also to not risk losing your job.
I've been doing this job for over 7 years now, and although i've never once bowed down and backed off from a punter and let them stay in the venue until police arrive, I can understand what might have happened.

Firstly, this "big" doorman. However big he may be, it could easily have been his first few shifts, inexperienced and not too confident on how to approach the situation may have played a part.
Secondly, the amount of doormen I have worked with who aren't worth the jacket they are wearing!is ridiculous and too be honest quite scary these days and is the reason I am deciding to quit the job very soon as it's unsafe. Coupled with the fact that respect for door staff doesn't exist anymore, it's an increasingly dangerous place to work.
Thirdly, if it was a pub, it would be unlikely to have more than 2 doormen, 3 at most. The only circumstance I would of called the police was if I knew the guy was with a larger group and risked more of them getting involved.

But other than that, I would of removed the guy forcefully if he so requested after being asked to leave, due to the fact that once refusing to leave, he is trespassing, therefore allowing necessary force to be used and any injuries he sustained on the way out, would be justified and proportionate to his own actions.

Anyways, rant over :D
post edited by smuggler - 2015/01/17 13:51:31

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chris182
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Re: 2015/01/17 13:59:20 (permalink)
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It's the busy bars that have one doorman, it kicked off once and I offered to help him control a few students - the guy looked terrified.

Can't be an easy job having to deal with drunken tools all the time, so respect where it's due
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Re: 2015/01/17 14:06:05 (permalink)
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To answer the OP they can remove people. As above if its been made clear that the person has to go, once they refuse they have become a trespasser. Resonable force can be used to lawfully eject the trespasser.
I wouldnt want to be the person stood in a court trying to justify grabbing someone by the throat though.
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Re: 2015/01/17 14:15:36 (permalink)
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True, not all situations can you justify taking someone by the throat. But it's not always black and white. If the doorman genuine feels a threat, and the most necessary or instinctive response is to do that, it can be justified. A lot of factors can play into necessary force i.e staff there to back you up or not, level of threat or intimidation, mental and physical condition of the aggressor etc.

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