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James
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2019/01/05 09:33:31 (permalink)
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Diabetes & Bodybuilding

We received an email about the article Diabetes & Bodybuilding
 
I just read your article on the meal plan for diabetic body builders -
written by a "nutritionist" with a BSc.  I'm kind of shocked, but not
really, as every encounter I've ever had with a "specialist" has been
atrocious.
The article begins by highlighting the body production of glucose.  Then, it
gets to the diet.  If I could swear here, I would **** ******* ****!  Awful.
So far out of line it is dangerous.
Speaking from experience, the only successful diet for diabetics is high
fat, high protein and low to zero carb intake.  Everything else, as your
article pointed out in the beginning, is turned into glucose which diabetics
cannot and will not ever be able to process.  Get it right - please, you're
killing people with this bad information.
My guess is that you won't care, so I'll abstain from divulging everything
I've learned unless you want to learn.
BR,
XXXX.
 
Rather than enter into a pointless debate on private email, I'm raising it here for open discussion and emailing Andy the link.
 
The official bodies like the American Diabetes Association (ADA) and Diabetes UK advocate(d) a carb level of around 50% total energy (%TE), as long as it's low sugar and high GI carbs and made up of fibrous carbs preferably low GI, with moderate protein and total fat.
 
Obviously, here XXXX is advocating the ultra-low-carb approach to diabetes, which indeed some people follow with good blood glucose control; indeed, the ADA has come around to this idea and openly admit there are numerous approaches to a suitable diet for diabetes, eg in some of the links here. Indeed, there's evidence that the ultra low carb approach* can be dangerous for long-term health in an already at-risk population subgroup.
 
However, XXXX is certainly wrong to suggest that the plan is 'so far out of line it's dangerous' because, if he is, then he needs to be sending a similar email to 1,000s of other websites including the ADA, Diabetes UK and the NHS. We are certainly NOT 'killing people'; indeed, there are 100,000s diabetics living long and healthy lives on the conventional approach.
 
If XXXX is from the UK, then, as the US count fibre in total carbs, then the mention of 'zero' carbs leads me to assume there's next to zero dietary fibre in the diet he recommends.
 
I'd be wrong to assume that XXXX is advocating a ketogenic approach as he doesn't mention this, but it's worth pointing out that his regimen would not be ketogenic as it would be high in glucogenic amino acids.
 
So, also 'speaking from experience', a diet like the approach in the article, is successful for diabetics. Andy is also very wrong to assume that we 'won't care' because we certainly do.
 
Open to debate, and would love to hear from diabetics and the approach they take. For reference, I do feel the 50%TE carbs is a little high as it's unnecessary: I'm more for around 40%TE from available carbs and fibre with low sugar, of course.
 
 
*zero carbs is not possible unless you eat solely meat
post edited by James - 2019/01/27 17:41:10
#1
The_Lone_Wolf
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/09 08:31:01 (permalink)
+1 (1)
How kind of them to email :)
 
Medical science is always changing, and over time potential remedies or cures will change too. 
 
With my limited knowledge on the subject, I know a few people who have diabetes and they all range in their health status and nutritional approach. Some manage it very well, and others not.
 
I saw a program recently that suggested an ultra low calorie diet (800 cals I think) for 8 weeks can have very dramatic effects on ones symptoms of diabetes, and that it was something the NHS were looking into. However, it didn't then mention the post diet protocol... Could be a huge rebound!   

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#2
James
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/15 15:49:51 (permalink)
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The_Lone_Wolf
How kind of them to email :)
 
Medical science is always changing, and over time potential remedies or cures will change too. 
 
With my limited knowledge on the subject, I know a few people who have diabetes and they all range in their health status and nutritional approach. Some manage it very well, and others not.
 
I saw a program recently that suggested an ultra low calorie diet (800 cals I think) for 8 weeks can have very dramatic effects on ones symptoms of diabetes, and that it was something the NHS were looking into. However, it didn't then mention the post diet protocol... Could be a huge rebound!   


I guess the ultra-low-calorie diet will depend on if they are obese in the first place; for someone who's normal weight, this could be an issue...
#3
James
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/27 17:41:40 (permalink)
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Hello James,
Many thanks for infringing my Data Protection rights and publishing a private communication without my consent - there's several really good reasons why I emailed you and also why I haven't logged in to set up an account. A private email was not a wasted idea - not if you really want to know the truth James.
Anyway, don't take offence here as previous - but you're wrong mate - very wrong. I stand completely by what I said - a high carb - or even 40-50% (as you advise) is criminal advise (or should be classed as such) from people who aren't interested in curing the current epidemic - or people - like yourself - who are completely misinformed.
I'm not blaming you because you have followed the exact same advise as the rest of us - given to us by our governments. Do you believe the British government??? Even worse - do you believe the Yanks??? Before you ask the question, no, I am not a conspiracy theorist - I just don't believe everything I'm told and have the inherent necessity to research everything myself.
If I had the time, I would email the thousands - as you put it - and I absolutely refute most advise sanctioned by our government and those of the USA - not only for nutrition and diabetic nutrition, but most topics on these matters. Britain is and has been for many years the tail of the American dog - getting ferociously waved about in the absence of meaningful purpose.
I'll try to keep this short and to the point.
Look at Western societies right now. What do you see? Epidemics of massive proportions involving obesity and diabetes, mixed with a plethora of "illnesses" never heard of before the millennium!
What has the catastrophic change been James? One thing and one thing only - diet.
Look at how we evolved and how we survived up until 1977. Why 1977? This is the year that the Americans passed a law to alter our dietary intake. They exchanged high fat and protein intake to low fat and carbohydrates. There was absolutely no scientific research or proof given to this, it has forever been contested and yet it still remains.
Look back 50 years. Did we have fat people? Yes, but absolutely nowhere near the epidemic we are witnessing now. Were your Grandparents fat? Most likely not. We worked hard and ate natural fat products. The human body NEEDS fat to survive - NOT carbs. I remember my mother coming home with margarine and skimmed milk in the 80's - it was horrible and it was NOT her fault. Have wild animals changed their diets since the beginning of time? No James, they have not.
Would you suggest that drinking a bottle of coke is a good thing for a diabetic? No James, even though you don't know why, you certainly wouldn't. Tell me why then, you suggest 40% carbs of a daily intake? You must certainly know what our body does to carbs? We convert them into glucose - so by all accounts James, carbs = sugar and sugar is deadly for diabetics - and anyone else wishing to sustain a healthy lifestyle for that matter. Many of us are carbohydrate intolerant - we just don't know and you got it - the government isn't going to let your doctor tell you. The higher the carb/glucose/sugar intake for a diabetic, the higher the dosage of insulin is and in the long term - this has catastrophic connotations, including insulin resistance, weight gain and heart failure. Diabetics are already two times more likely to have heart problems than non diabetics. Adding to that percentage with the incorrect dietary information - is wrong on so many different levels.
You say it's not possible to eat zero carbs unless only eating meat? Hows about the following ingredients:
lean meat, poultry and fisheggsdairy products like yoghurt and cheeseseeds and nutsbeans and legumes (such as lentils and chickpeas)soy products like tofukernelsbrocolibeetrootbuttercinnamoncoconut and coconut waterspinachseaweedquarkquinoagarlicgingercarrots
There's enough to make a few fantastic meals - carb free.
I invite you to look into Professor Tim Noakes who first off wrote a book on the importance of carbs as a marathon runner - until he developed diabetes. His shock, having led an extremely healthy life, caused him to research and to find out all of the above - and much much more. His page is The Real Meal Revolution. I'd love to see his answers to this! https://realmealrevolution.com
Have a look at this for some insight: https://youtu.be/Eg0OpnHY3nI
And if you really want to know why you don't know and who's behind the epidemics - big food and big pharma: https://youtu.be/rtmK8ZBsUJg
There's more than one way to skin a cat James and there's always going to be more than one opinion - I just happen to know that I'm right! Diabetes is an extremely complex condition - not a disease as the Americans label it. Not many people know much about it - and whilst I'm not claiming to be the know all - I have researched this diligently or years and consider myself very up to date in the absolute truth of the matter - therefore, I am confident in all of my thoughts and opinions. I also live with the condition - from a misdiagnosis. It's a horrible thing to have to bear.
Feel free to publish this, however, beforehand I am politely and respectfully asking you to remove my name from this and the previous post. I will also bring in a professional to lay his thoughts down on the subject - but not right now.
Best Regards,
***********

 
#4
James
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/27 17:42:50 (permalink)
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Please note, as per the individual's request I edited out the common first name I previously included from his email and replace it with XXXX
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simonboyle
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/27 17:55:15 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby James 2019/01/27 18:12:50
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James
We received an email about the article Diabetes & Bodybuilding
 
I just read your article on the meal plan for diabetic body builders -
written by a "nutritionist" with a BSc.  I'm kind of shocked, but not
really, as every encounter I've ever had with a "specialist" has been
atrocious.
The article begins by highlighting the body production of glucose.  Then, it
gets to the diet.  If I could swear here, I would **** ******* ****!  Awful.
So far out of line it is dangerous.
Speaking from experience, the only successful diet for diabetics is high
fat, high protein and low to zero carb intake.  Everything else, as your
article pointed out in the beginning, is turned into glucose which diabetics
cannot and will not ever be able to process.  Get it right - please, you're
killing people with this bad information.
My guess is that you won't care, so I'll abstain from divulging everything
I've learned unless you want to learn.
BR,
XXXX.
 
Rather than enter into a pointless debate on private email, I'm raising it here for open discussion and emailing Andy the link.

The official bodies like the American Diabetes Association (ADA) and Diabetes UK advocate(d) a carb level of around 50% total energy (%TE), as long as it's low sugar and high GI carbs and made up of fibrous carbs preferably low GI, with moderate protein and total fat.

Obviously, here XXXX is advocating the ultra-low-carb approach to diabetes, which indeed some people follow with good blood glucose control; indeed, the ADA has come around to this idea and openly admit there are numerous approaches to a suitable diet for diabetes, eg in some of the links here. Indeed, there's evidence that the ultra low carb approach* can be dangerous for long-term health in an already at-risk population subgroup.

However, XXXX is certainly wrong to suggest that the plan is 'so far out of line it's dangerous' because, if he is, then he needs to be sending a similar email to 1,000s of other websites including the ADA, Diabetes UK and the NHS. We are certainly NOT 'killing people'; indeed, there are 100,000s diabetics living long and healthy lives on the conventional approach.

If XXXX is from the UK, then, as the US count fibre in total carbs, then the mention of 'zero' carbs leads me to assume there's next to zero dietary fibre in the diet he recommends.

I'd be wrong to assume that XXXX is advocating a ketogenic approach as he doesn't mention this, but it's worth pointing out that his regimen would not be ketogenic as it would be high in glucogenic amino acids.

So, also 'speaking from experience', a diet like the approach in the article, is successful for diabetics. Andy is also very wrong to assume that we 'won't care' because we certainly do.

Open to debate, and would love to hear from diabetics and the approach they take. For reference, I do feel the 50%TE carbs is a little high as it's unnecessary: I'm more for around 40%TE from available carbs and fibre with low sugar, of course.


*zero carbs is not possible unless you eat solely meat


In the absence of carbs amino acids are converted to glucose, lol. So he's wrong there too.

In all fairness, with diabetics, the excess calories would be the issue, coupled with carbs.

Recent research shows that the "best" diet for them is very low calorie for an extended period of time.

Very beneficial for type 2.
Reverses it in a lot of cases.

Which brings up the next point, not all diabetics are the same.
So his email is pointless.

Just another hot head with an opinion and a way to voice it.
#6
gingernut
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/28 16:53:56 (permalink)
+1 (1)
I'm not a nutritionist, and I've no specific experience with diabetics outside the Level 3/4 GP Referral qualification I undertook a couple of years ago.
 
I have taken a nutrition component as part of my Eating Disorder + Obesity Master Practitioner therapy training which is supposed to be around level 7.
 
Still not a nutritionist, I am however very sceptical and wary of any 'diet' which demonises or takes out an entire food group. I've also had random people who know nothing about bodybuilding, try to convert me to Keto partway through a competition prep whilst I was at very low bodyfat (and still am). I had a look into the supposed benefits and saw no need.
 
I follow various nutritionists, eating disorder and body image type commentators on social media. The scariest is the 'low carb will save the world' Dr.
 
I have heard that some people do very well on low carb or Keto (I know low carb isn't Keto and Keto isn't just low carb), regards energy and appetite. From a therapist point of view I don't want anyone scared to eat anything, and even in my personal life when asked 'do you eat carbs', or 'do you eat carbs after 6pm' I'm up against a lot of media and societal myths. I do also understand diabetics in ED recovery have to be careful, are likely to need specialist nutritional/dietician advice.
 
I also dislike the arguing, surely a sensible maintainable, nutrient dense diet is the best anyone can do - and also protect against risk of developing issues.
 
Plus lots of people with diabetes, or at risk are unable to psychologically make the changes required. Now that's the bit I'm interested in. I'm sure others here know of clients for whom shouting dietary instructions are not enough, those are the people who need a bit of attention.
 
Sorry I've no hard science, I'm more concerned about the confusing mess which is out there and the point which will help a reasonable proportion of people improve their health being missed.
post edited by gingernut - 2019/01/28 16:57:13

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#7
simonboyle
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/28 21:39:00 (permalink)
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Fair enough.

I have differing views but to each their own.
Sensible discussion is always the best way.
#8
The_Lone_Wolf
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/29 08:37:22 (permalink)
+1 (1)
simonboyle
Fair enough.

I have differing views but to each their own.
Sensible discussion is always the best way.



We always strive for that here :)

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#9
Suds88
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/31 06:37:12 (permalink)
+1 (1)
...
post edited by Suds88 - 2019/02/04 02:33:14
#10
stinking_dylan
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/31 08:23:37 (permalink)
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Welcome to MT Suds, and great first post.

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#11
simonboyle
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/01/31 16:53:08 (permalink)
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Argument from authority is silly.

We don't have it so we can't understand it.

Better tell all the researchers and scientists to stop studying I then huh?

What a very silly statement to make.

You're experience, I'm sorry to say, does not impact anything that has need said here.
Having diabetes does not make you any more knowledgeable than anyone else either.
Suffering from something does not give you knowledge of it.

What next?

Only somoenywith a disease is capayof knowing about it?

If that was the case everyone would be ****ed as there wouldn't be any help or medical intervention for anything.

Silly silly point to try and make.

Shuts down all discussion.

Essentially, you can't talk about it as you don't have it.


Poor first post.

Try and avoid the whole "argument from authority".
It's very silly
#12
Suds88
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/02/01 05:19:49 (permalink)
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Futile arguing with fools. Debate was encouraged then shut down because you already know it all. Well done. Don't say you weren't warned when things go wrong and you end up with diabetes - which I wouldn't wish on anyone - not even a simpleton with the IQ of a wet sponge like Simon Boyle.
post edited by Suds88 - 2019/02/04 02:45:01
#13
stinking_dylan
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/02/01 08:21:08 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Oh dear, looks like this may become the next vegan thread...

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#14
James
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/02/01 09:00:38 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Welcome suds88 / Jo; great that this post has lead you to MT. Debate is good, but I don't debate this issue anymore, though, because I've debated it numerous times before and it's a poor use of my time. Everyone knows where I sit on carbs.
 
Simon and Jo - please debate pleasantly without personal attacks on the style of posting. Jo's first post was pleasant - let's keep it this way.
#15
silent rep
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/02/01 13:13:31 (permalink)
+2 (2)


Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat
#16
simonboyle
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/02/01 13:48:32 (permalink)
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No worries.
It won't be a debate, as anyone who claims such things isn't capable of one.

Jo, it's simple, you think anyone without diabetes can't possibly know what they are talking about.
That's your point of view.
So an argument from authority. Meaning that you believe your opinion, which it is, not fact but opinion, to be infallible.

It isn't.
And as said, an argument from authority is silly and pointless.

You're wrong and you contradict yourself with you're very first point in your first post. That if you don't have diabetes then you are incapable of understanding it.

Incorrect.
And a silly point to make.

Anyway, as said by James, it isn't worth debating.
Enjoy your cardio.
And English not being your first language is irrelevant and apparent.
And no one cares about your routine.
Don't really see why you feel the need to include such things.
#17
simonboyle
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Re: Diabetes & Bodybuilding 2019/02/01 13:54:07 (permalink)
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Oh, and I'll point out too, that perhaps re reading your post, particularly the part about your doctor, and her inability to accept her opinion isn't fact, may be something you should consider aiming at yourself.

You stated nothing beyond personal experience, yet claim to the authority (see a theme forming yet?) and are seriously trying to say no one else knows anything.

Again, very silly.

Also. This is a forum. Try and condense your posts, or it'll just result in TL/DR. As I doubt many got to the point where you think they'd all be agreeing with you.
It isn't a popularity contest.
Make your point based on verifiable facts, or it just seems like childish attention seeking.


James, nice thread, I'll be out now, no point wasting time on something that isn't actually going to be a debate.
#18
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