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Evidence that insulin does not work

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Santa
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2004/03/22 12:39:13 (permalink)
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Evidence that insulin does not work

The following studies show that insulin does NOT stimulate protein synthesis in vivo (in the body, as opposed to in a test tube). The conclusion in #1 was that increased doses of insulin, aminos, or both do not affect protein synthesis in the heart, and that the effects on skeletal muscles were inconclusive. In #2 the conclusion was "insulin failed to stimulate skeletal muscle and liver protein synthesis, even when major plasma substrates (glucose, amino acids, and potassium) were replaced." 1. McNulty PH, Young LH, Barrett EJ. 1993. Response of rat heart skeletal muscle protein in vivo to insulin and amino acid infusion. Am J Physiol. 264: E958-65. 2. Tauveron I, Larbaud D, et al. 1994. Effect of hyperinsulinemia and hyperaminoacidemia on muscle and liver protein synthesis in lactating goats. Am J Physiol. 267:E877-85.
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19 Replies Related Threads

    James
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 13:41:41 (permalink)
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    ..but we all know insulin doesn't stimulate protein synthesis!!!!!!!! This is the role of AS! Look how old those studies are

    What insulin does do is recruit more transporters to the cell membrane allowing for more amino acids and oligopeptides to enter into the cell and hence more protein is available for protein synthesis. Without stimulation of mRNA protein synthesis will not occur.
    #2
    david88
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 14:25:31 (permalink)
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    Combined with AS, it kicks ass my friend..!!
    #3
    dazc
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 14:29:30 (permalink)
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    ive seen ppl get good results with slin, even without aas, when theyve used it to bridge cycles
    #4
    TheDoctor
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 15:07:01 (permalink)
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    There is no question that insulin is an "anabolic" hormone.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Santa

    The following studies show that insulin does NOT stimulate protein synthesis in vivo

    Good to see a member reading up on topics which I actively encourage.

    But dont forget, usually to any physiological process there are two sides, opposing each other eg anabolism/catabolism, synthesis/breakdown.

    Now do some reading on the important chalonic action of insulin in inhibiting muscle protein breakdown.

    (which is one of the ways AS are good at building muscle).
    #5
    drab4
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 15:46:45 (permalink)
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    Indeed as has been discussed here before, insulin inhibits the lysosomal pathway of muscle breakdown.

    This is the type of breakdown caused by heavy exercise. Unless the rats and goats in the studies you posted Santa were exercising, insulin would not have as large an effect on them as it would on exercising animals such as bbers.

    Here are the abstracts of the studies that you mentioned.
    quote:
    Response of rat heart and skeletal muscle protein in vivo to insulin and amino acid infusion.

    McNulty PH, Young LH, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.

    Whether insulin, at physiological concentrations, stimulates net muscle protein synthesis in vivo remains unresolved. To examine this, we infused either saline, insulin (2.8 mU.kg-1.min-1, euglycemic clamp), an amino acid solution, or insulin plus amino acids for 4 h into awake overnight-fasted rats. Heart and skeletal muscle protein synthesis was measured by either a continuous tracer infusion method, using L-[1-14C]leucine, L-[2,5-3H]leucine, or L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine or by injection of L-[ring-2,6-3H]phenylalanine with a pool-flooding bolus of unlabeled phenylalanine. In heart, synthesis rates obtained using the arterial plasma specific activity of [3H]phenylalanine administered as either a tracer infusion or flooding bolus were comparable in saline-treated rats (range 10.9 +/- 1.2 to 12.2 +/- 0.9%/day) and were not affected by infusion of insulin or amino acids. Estimates using continuous infusion of L-[1-14C]leucine were significantly lower (P < 0.001), except when unlabeled amino acids were given also. In skeletal muscle, rates estimated using the flooding bolus (6.7 +/- 0.8%/day) were also not affected by insulin or amino acids. Estimates using continuous infusion of [3H]leucine (2.6 +/- 0.3%/day) or [3H]phenylalanine (2.8 +/- 1.0%/day) were lower and were still lower using [14C]leucine (1.6 +/- 0.6%/day), but increased toward those estimated with the flooding bolus during amino acid infusion. We conclude that, in heart muscle of the mature rat in vivo, neither insulin nor amino acids affect protein synthesis.

    quote:
    Effect of hyperinsulinemia and hyperaminoacidemia on muscle and liver protein synthesis in lactating goats
    I. Tauveron, D. Larbaud, C. Champredon, E. Debras, S. Tesseraud, G. Bayle, Y. Bonnet, P. Thieblot and J. Grizard
    Laboratoire d'Etude du Metabolisme Azote, Institut National de la Recherche Agronomique Centre de Clermont-Ferrand, Saint-Genes Champanelle, France.

    The experiment was carried out to clarify the roles of insulin and amino acids on protein synthesis in fed lactating goats (30 days postpartum). Protein synthesis in the liver and various skeletal muscles was assessed after an intravenous injection of a large dose of unlabeled valine containing a tracer dose of L-[2,3,4-3H]valine. The animals were divided into three groups. Group I was infused with insulin (1.7 mumol/min) for 2.5 h under glucose, potassium, and amino acid replacement. Group A was infused with an amino acid mixture to create stable hyperaminoacidemia for 2.5 h. Group C animals were controls. The fractional synthesis rates (FSR) were 31.5 +/- 2.2, 6.5 +/- 0.4, 4.3 +/- 0.8, 4.0 +/- 1.2, 3.9 +/- 1.2, and 3.6 +/- 0.4%/day (SD) in liver, masseter, diaphragm, anconeus, semitendinosus, and longissimus dorsi, respectively, for group C. Neither hyperinsulinemia in group I nor hyperaminoacidemia in group A had not affected by hyperinsulinemia but was stimulated by hyperaminoacidemia (+30%, P < 0.05). In contrast to previous experiments in which a labeled amino acid was constantly infused, this study revealed a stimulating effect of amino acids on protein synthesis in the liver but not in skeletal muscles. As previously observed in studies with the constant-infusion method, insulin had no effect on protein synthesis.



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    Santa
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 16:11:28 (permalink)
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    I am considering experimenting with insulin and T3 stacked together to see if I can make any gains without AAS.

    Would the absense of AAS mean that I wont gain anything? (the T3, which increases insulin sensitivity, is there to prevent or reduce fat-gain).

    And thanks for reassuring me guys - I was starting to get worried about the slin after reading that!
    #7
    Santa
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 16:19:27 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by James

    ..but we all know insulin doesn't stimulate protein synthesis!!!!!!!! This is the role of AS! Look how old those studies are

    What insulin does do is recruit more transporters to the cell membrane allowing for more amino acids and oligopeptides to enter into the cell and hence more protein is available for protein synthesis. Without stimulation of mRNA protein synthesis will not occur.



    So basically insulin makes your body more efficient in providing the necessary materials for protein synthesis to occur (meaning it would be synergistic with AAS)?
    #8
    James
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/22 22:06:29 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Santa


    So basically insulin makes your body more efficient in providing the necessary materials for protein synthesis to occur (meaning it would be synergistic with AAS)?


    yes, kind of. Along with it's inhibition of protein breakdown as covered by doc and drab
    #9
    POWERHOUSE585
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/23 11:15:34 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by Santa

    I am considering experimenting with insulin and T3 stacked together to see if I can make any gains without AAS.

    Would the absense of AAS mean that I wont gain anything? (the T3, which increases insulin sensitivity, is there to prevent or reduce fat-gain).

    And thanks for reassuring me guys - I was starting to get worried about the slin after reading that!



    i would be interested to see wat the experianced guys think ov this as it sounds like a good cycle when needong time off from gear

    #10
    Santa
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/23 13:44:48 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by POWERHOUSE585

    quote:
    Originally posted by Santa

    I am considering experimenting with insulin and T3 stacked together to see if I can make any gains without AAS.

    Would the absense of AAS mean that I wont gain anything? (the T3, which increases insulin sensitivity, is there to prevent or reduce fat-gain).

    And thanks for reassuring me guys - I was starting to get worried about the slin after reading that!



    i would be interested to see wat the experianced guys think ov this as it sounds like a good cycle when needong time off from gear





    It could be cheaper and more effective than using GH to bridge, while giving your HPTA a better chance to recover than when using the conventional d-bol bridge, for example.
    #11
    POWERHOUSE585
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/23 14:53:49 (permalink)
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    sounds good mate but my worries is a loss ov muscle tissue as in anybody really but im very interested mate
    keep me updated on this if u can
    and if any bro's out there have tried this method let us know
    #12
    Santa
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/23 17:09:39 (permalink)
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    Has anyone here personally had good experiences with insulin (in terms of its effectiveness)?
    #13
    POWERHOUSE585
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/24 10:50:18 (permalink)
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    yes mate i have had very good gaind from slin
    overall i have ran two cycles ov slin and the first was a learning curve for me with a lot of fat gain but the second was wicked
    only gained 2 kilos but wat i did gain was quality even as i was geting leaner
    u just need to learn how to manipualte ur carb intake and protien

    power
    #14
    tbip2001
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/24 14:24:56 (permalink)
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    Powerhouse: would you take a quick look at my slin protacol below, and tell me what you think mate??

    6.00pm Train

    7.15pm 7iu's slin (working up from 2 ius the first few times)

    7.30pm PW shake 70g protien/75g Maltodextrin

    9.00pm food meal 70g protien/70g low gi carbs/7g fat

    11.00pm casien shake 70g protein/ V low carbs.

    I realsie the humalog doesnt peak for 2 hours, but the large dose of carbs Post training, is to spike natural inulin levels.

    Is the above a safe and effective way to structure my nutrition?
    Is Maltodextrin suitable for slin/post training use? (Ive heard that although high on the GI, its doesnt elicit such a big insulin response?).

    Let me know mate, as I want to be safe, and avoid excess fat gain.
    thanys
    tbip2001

    #15
    POWERHOUSE585
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/24 15:48:50 (permalink)
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    well mate im no expert but yes ur right about malto i would not trust this as a fast actin source or carbs in real;tion to the slin release
    use somthing like glucose very cheap and effective

    your diet and slin intake looks good mate plenty ov carbs in there and precautions but u may want o rethink this as trying to get down that much food is hard for even big guys when say ur taking 7iu's slin and 70 grams glucose with protien too
    i rite in thinking that ur slin intake is straight after training also try and have your shake on hand so u can neck it after ur shot
    you should really be comsuming ur whole food meal about an hour after ur shake this will be hard i know but try and test before u get rite up to ur 7iu level
    aslong as u consume crabs for upto 3-4 hours after ur shot u should be fine and eventually with time and experiance u will be able to reduce carbs during ur shot but do not try this untill uve got a good picture ov how u react to slin
    try and get urslef a glucopen its a injectable glucose and will bring u round if u go hyper
    also have some lucozade on hand and sip upto dinner time
    there are loads ov precauitons that u think u may not need but aslong as u try them and access ur self correctly u shoud have no problems and be able to reduce accordinally

    are u using AAs ON THIS SLIN CYCLE
    #16
    tbip2001
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/24 17:27:33 (permalink)
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    Thankyou for that mate,

    Yes I will be using AS (this will be 6 weeks of 'bulking' and 6 of cutting leading up to my holiday):

    'Bulking'
    750mg Enan 1-6
    50mg D'bol (BD) 1-5
    25ug T3 1-6
    Slin Post workout (max 7ius)

    Yeah bro, I will be consuming the shake 15mins after slin shot. The meals are no problem bro, I can easily eat again 1 hour after.

    So does the below look ok:

    6.00pm Train

    7.15pm 7iu's slin (working up from 2 ius the first few times)

    7.30pm PW shake 70g protien/75g Glucose

    8.30pm food meal 70g protien/70g low gi carbs/7g fat

    10.30pm casien shake 70g protein/ V low carbs.

    Can I ask, are you an evening trainer. Just wonder about all those carbs late night in relation to fat gain.
    What were your biggest mistakes the first time round mate that led to the fat gain??

    Can you elaborate on the 'glucopen'?, are these available froma pharmacy??

    Thanks again for your time bro
    tbip2001
    #17
    Santa
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/25 10:04:41 (permalink)
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    Glucagon is an insulin antagonist and is only available on prescription.
    #18
    POWERHOUSE585
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/25 10:35:14 (permalink)
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    hi mate
    yes that looks ok but im no expert so dont take my word for it get more info if u can
    as for my training yes i am an evening trainer and this was my mistake i made with my first slin cycle eating carbs all day then eating after my shot and an hour after that and that was up untill 9 at nite
    ive learned to be able to reduce my carbs when i train later in the day after my shot so as tio not retain as much fat but at the end ov the day if u have worked hard enough ur body wont store it as fat it will use it to restore ur muscle glycohen stores,take this ur first cycle slowly and dont worry about storing to much fat
    get to know ur limits and take care

    yes santa is rite aboutt he glucopen it is only available on perscription or from a diabetic

    on your d-bol intake ov 50mg per day for 5 weeks this is considered a lot ov orals to be taking id reduce by 10mg and go for 40 or if u want ot be extra safe go with 30-35

    cheers buddy
    #19
    tbip2001
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    RE: Evidence that insulin does not work 2004/03/25 20:43:38 (permalink)
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    Thankyou for your time guys, I really do appreciate it.

    Powerhouse: Could you post your slin protacol for me? I realise yours will be different in terms of carb intake, because you now know how your body rreacts to slin, but I would still like to see it laid out. Timing/carb, protein ratios.. ect..

    And yes I do agree with you on the 50mg issue, Im backing dow to 40mg.

    Thanks again
    tbip2001
    #20
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