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FAO: The Doctor

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Dan Nukem
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2004/03/21 00:31:20 (permalink)
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FAO: The Doctor

About 6 months ago I was prescribed medicine for a bad lung infection.
Bricanyl expectorant syrup (terbutaline sulphate).

I just realised there reading the bottle(still some left) that its a beta 2 agonist.
Apparently terbutaline sulphate.3mg/ml

Guaphenesin BP 13.3mg.

I just clicked because I remembered I had cramps from hell with this stuff, then I read it lowers potassium, so i put 2 and 2 realised its a beta 2 agonist.

I'm just wondering if this stuff would have the same effect as clenbuterol, and how potent it is. Or is it any use at all?

#1

16 Replies Related Threads

    drab4
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/22 00:17:14 (permalink)
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    Correct mate, it's a beta-2 agonist like clen, so will have all the same effects.

    I don't know how it compares in terms of dose though.
    #2
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/22 00:48:25 (permalink)
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    I took 1 clen today, and the effect didn't seem as potent as the bricanyl.
    I've posted on a few other forums that I'm a member of, they had similar answers to you, but no one seems to know exactly how potent.

    Nice one anyway drab, hopefully the doc may have some more accurate info.
    #3
    TheDoctor
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/23 11:25:59 (permalink)
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    Yes terbutaline is a beta 2 agonist from the same family as clenbuterol.

    Difference being terbutaline has a shorter half life and is thus quick acting while clenbuterol has a longer half life and is longer acting.

    In addition and more importantly clenbuterol is very much more potent than terbutaline, to get the desired effect.
    #4
    TooSmall
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/23 12:11:08 (permalink)
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    Doc: I have asthma and am prescibed pulmicort and bricanyl.

    Obviosly i take the pulmicort morning and night and the bricanyl well...never.

    Is pulmicort catabolic?

    Could i just take the bricanyl once ed/eod and do away with the pulmicort?

    Presuming bricanyl has clen like effects?

    #5
    TheDoctor
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/23 14:55:12 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by TooSmall
    Obviosly i take the pulmicort morning and night and the bricanyl well...never.

    Could i just take the bricanyl once ed/eod and do away with the pulmicort?


    Pulmicort (Budesonide) is a corticosteroid, so yes, has the opposite actions to AS and can be catabolic.

    However given by inhalation, the drug is delivered directly to the airways and thus a smaller dose is needed. Furthermore there is little systemic absorption (ie to the rest of the body), so catabolic side effects are not a problem.

    You are being managed at Step 2 of the British Thoracic Society guidelines on the management of Asthma, which is regular inhaled corticosteroid and short acting beta2 agonist when needed.

    No you cant do away with the pulmicort and replace with bricanyl as they are two different drugs with different actions. The pulmicort is your preventer inhaler, it is this that is controlling your asthma and the fact that you do not need your bricanyl means that it is doing its job properly.

    If your asthma has approved you can move down to Step 1 of the guidelines which is just a short acting beta2 agonist as required (UP TO ONCE DAILY).

    If you need your bricanyl more than once a day then you should be at STEP2. Check with your doctor first to review your asthma before making any medication changes.
    #6
    TheDoctor
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/23 14:59:47 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by TheDoctor
    In addition and more importantly clenbuterol is very much more potent than terbutaline, to get the desired effect.


    This confirms what I said above.

    quote:
    Originally posted by TheDoctor
    Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther Toxicol. 1980 Jan;18(1):21-5.

    Oral NAB 365 (clenbuterol) and terbutaline in chronic obstructive lung disease: a double-blind, two-week study.

    Baronti A, Grieco A, Vibelli C.

    The bronchodilator effects of large oral doses of clenbuterol (30 micrograms, t.i.d.) and terbutaline sulfate (5 mg, t.i.d.) were compared using the forced expiratory volume in one second (FEV1), the specific airway resistance (sRaw) and the maximum expiratory flow at 50% of vital capacity (V50% VC) in a double-blind, two-week study, with groups of 12 patients each. The patients suffered from chronic obstructive lung disease with partially reversible airway obstruction. The bronchodilator actions of the two medications were significant between 30 and 240 minutes after the first administration on day 1 and between 30 and 60 minutes after the first administration on day 14. The administration of hydroxyphenylorciprenaline at 60 min on day 14 produced a significant additional bronchodilating effect over the bronchodilating effects of clenbuterol and terbutaline. The basal values recorded on days 7 and 14 demonstrated a significant improvement of pulmonary function over the basal values on day 1, similar in both groups. No tachyphylaxis to the bronchodilator effect to either drug occurred over the two-week study period. Neither the incidence nor the nature of side effects differed in the two treated groups. No changes in heart rate or blood pressure were noted. No abnormal effects on blood gas tension or laboratory results were observed. It was concluded that oral clenbuterol is about 170 times more potent than oral terbutaline.

    #7
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/24 02:03:07 (permalink)
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    Nice one for the reply Doc. Concise as usual.


    #8
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/24 02:05:29 (permalink)
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    Also I forgot to ask, do all beta 2 agonist downgrade beta 2 receptors in the same way?
    For example, if one were to cycle terbutaline and clen, could one extend the amount of time before downgrading occurs?
    #9
    drab4
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/24 18:07:02 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Also, if possible could you place an estimate of equivalence between terbutaline and clen potency.

    From the study TheDoc posted: "It was concluded that oral clenbuterol is about 170 times more potent than oral terbutaline."

    So if we take that number, then 20 mcg of clen is equivalent to around 3.4 mg of terbutaline mate.


    quote:
    do all beta 2 agonist downgrade beta 2 receptors in the same way?
    Yep that's right mate. However a lot of this has to do with half-life. Clen has a long half-life so is known to downregulate beta-2 quite strongly. Terbutaline has a shorter half-life (usually about 3 hours), so downregualtion would be slower, unless you used terbutaline constantly throughout the day.
    #10
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/25 03:23:23 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by drab4

    quote:
    Also, if possible could you place an estimate of equivalence between terbutaline and clen potency.

    From the study TheDoc posted: "It was concluded that oral clenbuterol is about 170 times more potent than oral terbutaline."

    So if we take that number, then 20 mcg of clen is equivalent to around 3.4 mg of terbutaline mate.


    quote:
    do all beta 2 agonist downgrade beta 2 receptors in the same way?
    Yep that's right mate. However a lot of this has to do with half-life. Clen has a long half-life so is known to downregulate beta-2 quite strongly. Terbutaline has a shorter half-life (usually about 3 hours), so downregualtion would be slower, unless you used terbutaline constantly throughout the day.



    Thanks for clearing that up.
    Missed the 2nd report by the doc, don't ask me how!

    Okay, I can see ways now in which it would be useful, but Clen would still probably be better.
    Funny tho, because from personal use I've come to the conclusion that terbutaline was much stronger than clen.

    On 3 tablets of clen=60mcg, I hardly noticed it today.But taking 2X5ml spoons of bricanyl, I felt like doing cartwheels.

    Thanks anyway
    #11
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/25 03:25:15 (permalink)
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    Why are some beta 2 agonists in liquid form and others in tablets and is this related to shorter half life?
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    drab4
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/25 17:24:48 (permalink)
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    There is also a clen syrup I think..... So probably not related to half-life, rather just for a different market.
    #13
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/03/25 23:24:06 (permalink)
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    ok thanks
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    drab4
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/04/02 00:41:16 (permalink)
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    BTW in case you're still interested, I recently found this abstract whilst searching for something else.

    It shows that terbutaline used three times per day does cause downregulation of the beta-2 receptors, as we expected it might.
    quote:
    Effects of chronic beta-receptor stimulation on sympathetic nervous system activity, energy expenditure, and thyroid hormones.

    Scheidegger K, O'Connell M, Robbins DC, Danforth E Jr.

    The effects of hyper- and hypothyroidism on sympathetic nervous system activity and energy expenditure are well recognized. The impact of altered sympathetic nervous system activity on energy expenditure and thyroid hormone metabolism has not been well studied. We investigated the effects of orally administered terbutaline sulfate, a beta 2-receptor agonist (5 mg, three times per day for 2 weeks), on the activity of the sympathetic nervous system, energy expenditure, and thyroid hormone metabolism in six normal men, aged 21-36 yr. The cardiovascular, metabolic, and thermogenic responses to an infusion of the beta-adrenergic agonist isoproterenol were clearly blunted after 2 weeks of treatment with terbutaline sulfate, indicating down-regulation of beta-receptors and/or development of reduced sensitivity. There were no significant changes in the cardiovascular, metabolic, or thermogenic responses to an infusion of the alpha-adrenergic agonist phenylephrine. Basal metabolic rate was significantly increased by the chronic administration of terbutaline sulfate [5.040 +/- 0.167 (+/- SE) vs. 5.421 +/- 0.234 kJ/min; P less than 0.05]. There was a highly significant change in the serum T3 to T4 ratio (19.4 +/- 1.0 vs. 24.4 +/- 1.0; P less than 0.001). This was a result of increased serum T3 concentrations (136 +/- 9 vs. 160 +/- 14 ng/dl; P less than 0.05) and decreased serum T4 concentrations (7.2 +/- 0.8 vs. 6.7 +/- 0.8 micrograms/dl; P = NS). Chronic beta-receptor stimulation with terbutaline sulfate increases the basal metabolic rate and T3 concentrations. These changes occurred despite down-regulation of beta-receptors and/or decreased sensitivity in response to chronic terbutaline administration.

    #15
    Dan Nukem
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/04/02 12:45:08 (permalink)
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    [?]Thanks, interesting that says that it increases T3 levels. Perhaps I'm wrong, but Clen doesn't do that does it?
    [?]What is the effect of reduced t4 levels?

    I remember last year, when I stopped using the bricanyl, I rapidly gained weight and was lethargic for a while, lost all interest in training etc.[?] Just wondering if this is because of the downregulation?(hope not cause I'm finishing a 2 week clen cycle tommorow)

    On another note, I've got a bit of cirisis atm, and my doc has recommended taking Diprosalic.
    The problem is diprosalic is a corticosteroid, and according to the research I've been doing,(and the above post in response to TooSmall by TheDoc), corticosteroids can be catabolic but depends on the dosage.
    Thing is I'm just starting to get back into shape and finally happy again after the last year of sh*t, and the last thing I wanna do is fkkk up these gains. [?]Exactly how catabolic would Diprosalic be?

    Regards
    #16
    drab4
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    RE: FAO: The Doctor 2004/04/04 03:14:41 (permalink)
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    Hi mate.

    I'm not sure what effect clen has on T3 levels TBH.

    Reduced T4 levels won't really have any effect, as T3 is the more important and active hormone.

    If you were useing the Bricanyl for a long time, then yep it could certainly have been responsible for your later lethargy. The good news of course is that this should only be temporary.

    What will you be using the Diprosalic for? If your doc believes you need it then I'd probably go ahead and use it. Yes any catabolic effect will be strongly dependent on what dose you use.
    #17
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