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Guidance on unfuelled cardio

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edjam
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2008/05/11 12:34:06 (permalink)

Guidance on unfuelled cardio

Hi gang. Over the last few weeks I have been doing unfuelled, steady state cardio in the morning, with some gains in the early stages, but progress seems to have slowed recently. I have posted the detials of my overall week includign diet and training schedule foryou guys to look at too. I have a few questions:

1) Intensity
I might be going too intense, just checking that about 120 heart rate is where I want to be, bearing in mind I'm 22 years old. I find it hard not to go more intense since I'm quite a fit person, so higher levels on machines are generally where I am on a 'cardio' training session, as opposed to a pure fat burn training session. Currently, my typical level on the x trainer for example is a level 18 out of a max of 20...I suspect that this may be too high, and doing more harm than good in terms of muscle retention/fat loss.

2) Duration
Taking it that i get my intensity spot on, what is the maximum length I can go for typically, without starting to revert to muscular energy sources as opposed to fat? I ask this because I will be going into summer holidays soon, where I'll have a bit more time, so can dedicate more time to unfuelled in the morning.

My current training routine as it stands is:

5 x 45 mins unfuelled cv in the gym (mixture of bike, x trainer, summit trainer)
3 x 1.5 hours of muay thai a week
3 x weights sessions a week

My diet is typically as follows:

Post unfuelled cv (8.30 am) - Protein shake (with carnitine), glass of orange juice

lunch time (12pm) - 2 wholemeal pitta breads (8 slices of chicken/turkey and spinach), two apples

Afternoon (3 - 4pm) - MRP Protein shake from boditronics (carnitine added), usually another apple

Train (Either weights or muay thai)

Post training (8pm) - chicken stir fry (no noodles, although I do have one of those Blue Dragon sauces with it). Cooked with olive oil.

Cheers for any help guys. I've lost abotu 16" off my waist over the last few years, and am really trying to smash the remaining gut and man boobs, but am finding it hard to keep getting gains, after gaining so much, if you see what I mean:o)
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    Drew Price
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    RE: Guidance on unfuelled cardio 2008/05/14 13:59:21 (permalink)
    I think you could do with a big rearrangement of both training and diet but I'll put my thoughts on what youre currently doing 1st:
    ORIGINAL: edjam
    1) Intensity
    I might be going too intense, just checking that about 120 heart rate is where I want to be, bearing in mind I'm 22 years old. I find it hard not to go more intense since I'm quite a fit person, so higher levels on machines are generally where I am on a 'cardio' training session, as opposed to a pure fat burn training session. Currently, my typical level on the x trainer for example is a level 18 out of a max of 20...I suspect that this may be too high, and doing more harm than good in terms of muscle retention/fat loss.


    A frequent problem, you would be looking to balance out the advantages of fat loss against you ability to retain muscle and recover enough to train muai thai and weights intensely.

    Remember heart reate for a given power output can be effected by stimulants ('fat burners', coffee etc) and also how good you are at cycling.

    ORIGINAL: edjam

    2) Duration
    Taking it that i get my intensity spot on, what is the maximum length I can go for typically, without starting to revert to muscular energy sources as opposed to fat? I ask this because I will be going into summer holidays soon, where I'll have a bit more time, so can dedicate more time to unfuelled in the morning.


    I would certainly not recommend anything over 40 mins before you MUST have some protein (though you may think about having some before, remember lean mass is useful for weight loss). Of course there is no 'set point' with regards to duration, again just look to balance out the pros and cons.

    ORIGINAL: edjam
    My current training routine as it stands is:

    5 x 45 mins unfuelled cv in the gym (mixture of bike, x trainer, summit trainer)
    3 x 1.5 hours of muay thai a week
    3 x weights sessions a week


    Looks heavy but manageable

    ORIGINAL: edjam
    My diet is typically as follows:

    Post unfuelled cv (8.30 am) - Protein shake (with carnitine), glass of orange juice

    lunch time (12pm) - 2 wholemeal pitta breads (8 slices of chicken/turkey and spinach), two apples

    Afternoon (3 - 4pm) - MRP Protein shake from boditronics (carnitine added), usually another apple

    Train (Either weights or muay thai)

    Post training (8pm) - chicken stir fry (no noodles, although I do have one of those Blue Dragon sauces with it). Cooked with olive oil.


    Thoughts on the diet at the moment:

    - Take your cals in the form of brown starches after training cardio and in the evening (i.e. not fruit juice but say oats and berries and have the carbs at lunch after PM training)
    - Eat more frequently
    - Where are the omega 3's? You could try including a LOT more of these.
    - How much fluid are you drinking?
    - You may well need a little more fat elsewhere at the expense of a little carbohydrate post workout.

    ORIGINAL: edjam
    Cheers for any help guys. I've lost abotu 16" off my waist over the last few years, and am really trying to smash the remaining gut and man boobs, but am finding it hard to keep getting gains, after gaining so much, if you see what I mean:o)


    Good progress mate however as above I don't like this diet and also it sounds to me like to may need to go on a higher calorie intake for a couple of weeks just to get things moving again. It's short term change versus long term benefits.

    Your training volume is high but you cals are low, this is often a problem when done for a while, the body is using a 200000 year old instruction manual and doesn't like what you're doing here. Up the cals, prom good carb post workout and a little fats elsewhere and get you metabolism fired up again then slowly decrease cals again. You won't get fat in the two weeks.

    On the training side you could think about dropping some of the SSCV and including some HIIT (away from you legs training days), clusters and possibly even tabata instead. Swap things up to get the fat shifting again.

    With the weights in mind you may want to consider starting to use a lot more in the way of supersets in the training. Afre you doing supersets? It allows for greater training density with little loss in performance. Also you may need to think about dropping the volume and upping the intensity when you are on the lower calorie intake.
    post edited by drewsky - 2008/05/14 14:02:06
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    edjam
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    RE: Guidance on unfuelled cardio 2008/05/15 22:24:51 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: drewsky

    I think you could do with a big rearrangement of both training and diet but I'll put my thoughts on what youre currently doing 1st:
    ORIGINAL: edjam
    1) Intensity
    I might be going too intense, just checking that about 120 heart rate is where I want to be, bearing in mind I'm 22 years old. I find it hard not to go more intense since I'm quite a fit person, so higher levels on machines are generally where I am on a 'cardio' training session, as opposed to a pure fat burn training session. Currently, my typical level on the x trainer for example is a level 18 out of a max of 20...I suspect that this may be too high, and doing more harm than good in terms of muscle retention/fat loss.


    A frequent problem, you would be looking to balance out the advantages of fat loss against you ability to retain muscle and recover enough to train muai thai and weights intensely.

    Remember heart reate for a given power output can be effected by stimulants ('fat burners', coffee etc) and also how good you are at cycling.

    ORIGINAL: edjam

    2) Duration
    Taking it that i get my intensity spot on, what is the maximum length I can go for typically, without starting to revert to muscular energy sources as opposed to fat? I ask this because I will be going into summer holidays soon, where I'll have a bit more time, so can dedicate more time to unfuelled in the morning.


    I would certainly not recommend anything over 40 mins before you MUST have some protein (though you may think about having some before, remember lean mass is useful for weight loss). Of course there is no 'set point' with regards to duration, again just look to balance out the pros and cons.

    ORIGINAL: edjam
    My current training routine as it stands is:

    5 x 45 mins unfuelled cv in the gym (mixture of bike, x trainer, summit trainer)
    3 x 1.5 hours of muay thai a week
    3 x weights sessions a week


    Looks heavy but manageable

    ORIGINAL: edjam
    My diet is typically as follows:

    Post unfuelled cv (8.30 am) - Protein shake (with carnitine), glass of orange juice

    lunch time (12pm) - 2 wholemeal pitta breads (8 slices of chicken/turkey and spinach), two apples

    Afternoon (3 - 4pm) - MRP Protein shake from boditronics (carnitine added), usually another apple

    Train (Either weights or muay thai)

    Post training (8pm) - chicken stir fry (no noodles, although I do have one of those Blue Dragon sauces with it). Cooked with olive oil.


    Thoughts on the diet at the moment:

    - Take your cals in the form of brown starches after training cardio and in the evening (i.e. not fruit juice but say oats and berries and have the carbs at lunch after PM training)
    - Eat more frequently
    - Where are the omega 3's? You could try including a LOT more of these.
    - How much fluid are you drinking?
    - You may well need a little more fat elsewhere at the expense of a little carbohydrate post workout.

    Cool, I've actually been toyign with adding in oats after my morning CV, so will definitely take this on board.
    I've already started eating more frequently, well, protein shakes and apples, just for convenience sake. Also, I've started taking Omega 3/6/9 tabs daily now - I'm not a big fish fan unfortunately, so will get it in the supp route - not ideal I know.

    I drink about 4 litres of water a day - 2 litres in the gym altogether.

    ORIGINAL: edjam
    Cheers for any help guys. I've lost abotu 16" off my waist over the last few years, and am really trying to smash the remaining gut and man boobs, but am finding it hard to keep getting gains, after gaining so much, if you see what I mean:o)


    Good progress mate however as above I don't like this diet and also it sounds to me like to may need to go on a higher calorie intake for a couple of weeks just to get things moving again. It's short term change versus long term benefits.

    Your training volume is high but you cals are low, this is often a problem when done for a while, the body is using a 200000 year old instruction manual and doesn't like what you're doing here. Up the cals, prom good carb post workout and a little fats elsewhere and get you metabolism fired up again then slowly decrease cals again. You won't get fat in the two weeks.

    On the training side you could think about dropping some of the SSCV and including some HIIT (away from you legs training days), clusters and possibly even tabata instead. Swap things up to get the fat shifting again.

    With the weights in mind you may want to consider starting to use a lot more in the way of supersets in the training. Afre you doing supersets? It allows for greater training density with little loss in performance. Also you may need to think about dropping the volume and upping the intensity when you are on the lower calorie intake.



    I have used supersets and do indeed find them very effective. I'm currently doing all over body routines right now just to give my body a break - supersets I found hard going, although as you suggest, very rewarding in terms of progress.


    Thanks very much for your advice and help mate, much appreciated.
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