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I've tried but still confused about HCG !

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arambol
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2008/05/19 12:06:19 (permalink)
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I've tried but still confused about HCG !

Hi guys,

I've researched and researched and still I'm not too clear. There seems to be lots of conflicting advice.

I'm currently running a 12 week cutting cycle of test / t3/ clen/ eca and I plan to add 4 weeks of tbol at 40-50mg/ day at week 10 and run the tbol upto PCT. PCT is a combo of Nolva and Clomid as that seems to work best for me.

However this cycle I want to run HCG to help with recovery.

My questions:

1. When should the HCG be introduced with this specific cycle?
2. What dose?
3. I have Adex, should that be included and if so when?
4. Can I inject sub-q in the stomach area (as common with sub-q injections) or is glute still preferred with HCG?

Really appreciate any guidance.

Cheers


#1

14 Replies Related Threads

    Medichecks
    bigguns99
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 12:12:49 (permalink)
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    i do sub q but others do im. up to you, not real difference.

    hcg should be used at a low dose throughout to maintain the size of the testicles. (250iu every 3 days etc)

    or

    hcg can be used to rectify testiclar shrinkage before the start of pct usually at a higher dose (1500ui every other day for 2 weeks at the end of your cycle) need to give it a week off before starting pct.

    #2
    arambol
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 12:37:23 (permalink)
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    Thanks bigguns,

    I'll be going for the 1500ui every other day for 2 weeks at the end of cycle..... however usually I'd run the t-bol upto the day before PCT.

    Should I just stop the t-bol a week early (along with the HCG) and give myself a week AAS free, and then start PCT?

    Cheers
    #3
    999Tech
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 14:45:03 (permalink)
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    Sorry to jump in on your thread arambol but does any1 know if it is worth running nolva alongside the hcg?
    #4
    pulitu
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 14:54:44 (permalink)
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    Doses of HCG
    Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

    It is important for the HCG administration to have been completed with 6 or 7 clear days before the onset of PCT in order to avoid inhibition of the Nolvadex and/or Clomid therapy. Also, a small daily dose (10-20mg) of Nolvadex would normally be used in conjunction with HCG in order to prevent oestrogenic symptoms caused by sudden increases in aromatisation.


     
     
    #5
    bigguns99
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 14:55:36 (permalink)
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    you can run the orals up to pct. no need to stop.

    999tech

    i do add some nolva with my hcg mid cycle when i am running larger doses such as 1500iu. i just add 20mg because I also run prov throughout. Some will say no point but its better to be safe than gyno sorry!

    arambol

    maybe worth you doing the same if you are not running any AI with your cycle. run nolva 20mg ed throughout the two weeks of hcg use.

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    999Tech
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 15:00:48 (permalink)
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    ideal. cheers
    #7
    bigguns99
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 15:07:19 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: pulitu

    Doses of HCG
    Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500IU and 1000IU per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

    It is important for the HCG administration to have been completed with 6 or 7 clear days before the onset of PCT in order to avoid inhibition of the Nolvadex and/or Clomid therapy. Also, a small daily dose (10-20mg) of Nolvadex would normally be used in conjunction with HCG in order to prevent oestrogenic symptoms caused by sudden increases in aromatisation.



    after reading this arambol, it mite be worth you doing 750iu ed rather than 1500 eod for the 2 weeks. wont make much of a difference but slightly less chance of side effects such as gyno. for future cycles, i always think its best to run a small dose throughout (250iu every 3 days) as it will maintain your testicles throughout.
    #8
    Greenranger
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 16:14:19 (permalink)
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    I wouldnt run doses of over 500iu at a time personally.....fries your interstitial cells...

    I run 500iu once a week throughout the cycle, up until the week before PCT (2 weeks before pct, 250iu e3d)

    Shut up and squat

    UGM
    #9
    thecodehaseyes
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 16:50:39 (permalink)
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    Ive commented on this before several times:


    by swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERMs at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a "bridge". Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't "fool" the body? it is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other


    JC: Dr. John has updated the original paper you published. Here it is:

    My New HCG Protocol Paper
    This paper is about to be published in The American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine 2004 Clinical Updates:

    AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

    By John Crisler, DO

    In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

    Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

    So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
    testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

    But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

    It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

    In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

    I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

    Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

    While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

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    tigernut
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 17:25:33 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: thecodehaseyes

    Ive commented on this before several times:





    the reports without the comment above would of done - we cant all expect to have every reader read every thread. OP's info request was a valid one. consider yourself told! hehehe

    theres another couple of links on a thread thats prolly on page 2 or 3 now in this section arambol. you might want to hunt them out. its a thread i started so that should make it easier for you to find.

    take everything on this thread onboard, then look at the links on that thread i kicked up, and theres been a few other threads in recent weeks on hCG thats worth a read. unfortunately, theres no hard and fast rules with hCG, other than the need to watch for issues with developing resistance to it, and so to your natural production later on, which IMO is more crucial and worrisome to any gyno issue, which with hCG, IMO is a secondary concern to it.

    look at the use of nolva with it to avoid this problem. it doesnt seem to be a requirement with low doses of hCG (100-200iu range) but is deffo an issue with the higher doses, so worth learning about. thats why i would prefer in the future to use low doses for longer periods than the high impact boost prior to the PCT protocol which others suggested above. its very much still 'each to their own' though on hCG, as there is little in the way of study on the subject.

    as i said though, theres a set of 2 good links on that other thread of mine from good sources, so fish them out and have a read. some of it will agree with the post from the lad i quoted above, some of it is slightly different, but the underlying ideas are pretty much the same.

    x-fire gaming nickname - tigernut. and tell me ya from MT cos i'll deleted ya if ya dont! :)
    #11
    bigguns99
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 19:37:25 (permalink)
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    it sound like he is mid cycle though and not used hcg yet, therfore he need to get his testicles back to size, not just maintain them from now. thats why i suggested a higher dose of hcg for 2 weeks.
    #12
    Abdul
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/19 20:13:33 (permalink)
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    I'm also new to HCG

    Is it injected at the normal places (glutes, quads....)?

    what sort of pin? 21g, 25g?

    Cheers
    #13
    thecodehaseyes
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/20 09:31:31 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: tigernut


    ORIGINAL: thecodehaseyes

    Ive commented on this before several times:





    the reports without the comment above would of done - we cant all expect to have every reader read every thread. OP's info request was a valid one. consider yourself told! hehehe



    I think you misconstrued me mate. I meant I have commented on swales protocol several times before and posted on this forum.

    Anyway no harm done

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    #14
    tigernut
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    RE: I've tried but still confused about HCG ! 2008/05/20 10:14:59 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: bigguns99

    it sound like he is mid cycle though and not used hcg yet, therfore he need to get his testicles back to size, not just maintain them from now. thats why i suggested a higher dose of hcg for 2 weeks.

    ah right hadnt clocked that matey.



    ORIGINAL: thecodehaseyes


    ORIGINAL: tigernut


    ORIGINAL: thecodehaseyes

    Ive commented on this before several times:





    the reports without the comment above would of done - we cant all expect to have every reader read every thread. OP's info request was a valid one. consider yourself told! hehehe



    I think you misconstrued me mate. I meant I have commented on swales protocol several times before and posted on this forum.

    Anyway no harm done


    was only playing mate

    x-fire gaming nickname - tigernut. and tell me ya from MT cos i'll deleted ya if ya dont! :)
    #15
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