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MT strengths targets for athletes?

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Sheeps_Clothing
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2004/01/07 20:57:33 (permalink)
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MT strengths targets for athletes?

hi guys, as a novice to the weight game i am looking for aims for a lifter that would be considered "strong" when talking to anyone.

in particular i am interested in what you would consider "strong", "very strong" and "beast" in the following lifts-
raw and with no equipment except chalk

powerclean
powersnatch
deadlift
bench
overhead squat
overhead press
squat
front squat

i know that stuart mcrobert outlines "strong" as 300, 400,500 for bench, squat , deadlift for a man of around 200lbs.

i have also found the "bigger faster stronger" articles which detail an "all american" level squat as 445 lbs or 200kg for a medium weight athlete ( ie around 200lbs), deadlift at 500 , bench at 300 and clean ( i presume powerclean ) at 270

i am also aware of dan john ( well known strength coach) saying that a very strong lifter could overhead squat DEEP bodyweight for 15 reps ...

in dinosaur training brooks details the following lifts as kinda ultimate aims....

200lb lifter - 518lb squat
- 606lb deadlift
- 322lb press ( push press??)
- 364lb bench press


i have also heard 1.5x bw for 20 rep deep breathing squat being used as a test of squatting strength = 140kg x 20 reps..

so what is ur opinion on the following, in the order of strong, super strong, beast....

squat- 180kgx1, 200kgx1, 230kgx1
- 120x20, 130kgx20, 150x20

front squat- 135kgx1, 150kgx1, 170kgx1

push press- 100kgx1, 120kgx1, 140kgx1

powerclean- 100kgx1, 120kgx1, 140kgx1

powersnatch- 80kg, 100kg, 120kg

deadlift- 200kg, 22kg, 270kg

bench- 120kg x 1, 140kgx1, 165kgx1

opinions?
#1

28 Replies Related Threads

    USA DEALS
    Meatball
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/07 21:17:25 (permalink)
    Star Ratings
    Posted on B&P by Paul Carter on 5-12-00

    Squatting x 5 (raw, belt only):
    275 - 315: 1 star
    365 - 385: 2 stars
    405 - 455: 3 stars
    495 - 545: 4 stars
    585 +: 5 stars

    Benching x 5 (raw):
    205 - 225: 1 star
    245 - 275: 2 stars
    305 - 325: 3 stars
    365 - 385: 4 stars
    405 +: 5 stars

    Dipping x 5 (bodyweight NOT included):
    40 - 50: 1 star
    60 - 80: 2 stars
    100 - 135: 3 stars
    150 - 180: 4 stars
    200+: 5 stars

    Deadlift X 5 (straps are ok, no suit, belt is ok):
    275 - 315: 1 star
    365 - 405: 2 stars
    455 - 495: 3 stars
    545 - 585: 4 stars
    600+: 5 stars

    SLDL x 5 (straps are ok, no belt):
    245 - 275: 1 star
    290 - 315: 2 stars
    365 - 385: 3 stars
    405 - 455: 4 stars
    495+: 5 stars

    Military/PBN x 5(seated or standing, no push presses):
    165 - 185: 1 star
    205 - 215: 2 stars
    225 - 245: 3 stars
    255 - 275: 4 stars
    285+: 5 stars

    Barbell Curls x 5 (strict, no cheating on any rep)
    95 - 115: 1 star
    135 - 155: 2 stars
    165 - 175: 3 stars
    185 - 195: 4 stars
    205+: 5 stars
    #2
    Sheeps_Clothing
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/07 21:45:52 (permalink)
    what bodyweight is that for mate?
    #3
    suggy3001
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/07 21:48:44 (permalink)
    problem is those do not take into account BW.

    i would consider 'strong' those who could
    2xbw squat
    2xbw dl
    1.5xbw bench
    1.5xbw pw clean
    1xbw press

    thats about where I am atm ;)


    very strong <--- trying to get here :)

    2.5bw squat
    2.5bw dl
    2bw bench
    1.75bw clean
    1.25 press

    beast again along those lines + a bit

    for numbers I wouldnt argue with the figures you outlined
    #4
    Colin.A.
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/07 23:05:23 (permalink)
    I think when you are talking about absolute strength bodyweight shouldn't come into it. How many times to all of us that go to a gym get asked "how much can you bench?" When was the last time someone asked what percentage of your bodyweight you benched?

    To me absolute stregnth is who can lift the most weight, not who can lift the highest % of bodyweight.

    Is a 150 pound man who can squat 450 really stronger than a 250 pound man that can squat 600? Proportionately maybe, but the guy who lifts the most weight is the strongest.

    There are no weight classes in real life, only heavy objects that need moving. When you need to move a fridge freezer up a flight of stairs does anyone give a **** how much you weigh? Or is your actual ability to lift the thing more important???


    #5
    Robert
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/07 23:51:25 (permalink)
    colin A,

    "Is a 150 pound man who can squat 450 really stronger than a 250 pound man that can squat 600?"

    absolute strength, very obviously...

    but if you asked a "how much do you bench" question to a guy who was 100lb+ lighter than you and his lift was **respectivley**, as good as yours/better, who is the stronger??
    etreme example:

    bw 150lbs, squat 500
    bw 250lbs, squat 501

    is the 250lb, in all honestey, stronger??

    more relateable example:

    guy of 150lb [me] can bench 100+kg
    guy of nearly 280lb [my friend tom aka pork chop] can bench 127.5kg

    are you honestly going to tell me you would consider him the stronger of the two???

    after all, the original post did not say absolute strength, it said strength.

    "I think when you are talking about absolute strength bodyweight shouldn't come into it"
    why do they have bw catagories in absolute strength competitions then??
    just my opinions. no flame.

    J5,

    300, 400, 500???

    for who, for someone huge, [ronnie coleman for example] they are not, imo, impressive lifts. for someone who is 150lbs, they are. are you implying that if someonme weighed 250lb and post a 300, 400, 500 totals you would commend them over a person weighing 150lb toaling 250, 350, 450??
    agaijn, not a flame, trying to understand your point of view.

    rob
    #6
    Sheeps_Clothing
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/07 23:54:19 (permalink)
    fair point colin, but i wasnt necessarily talking about functional strength...

    ur point about the bench press is valid, but then again a 70kg man who can bench 125kg is far more impressive than a guy who weighs 140kg but can only bench bodyweight.

    on the fridge issue, i would have functional strength down as a whole different thing. as we know there are guys who have worked on farms, manual labour, lumberjacks, etc all there lives who have never touched a weight but are far more functionally strong than the guy who has a 1200 total.

    can you even measure functional strength? and how do you think it relates to absolute strength?
    #7
    Robert
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 00:11:18 (permalink)
    functional strength does not translate as well as it should into gym strength imo. i work as lumberjack, as you put it, and know for a fact even someone with a higher gym total than i, regard les of bw, would struggle to do some of the things i do/and definitley the biggre guys do...

    and imo, no you cannot measure functional strength unless you put someone through 100's of diffrent tests. the point of functional strength is to be good at anything in its extreme, i am good at dragging/rolling very heavy logs up hills/embankments, others might be good at pressing logs overhead, neither are easy, neither are anything like the other, and it wuld be difficult to be v.good at both.

    tests of functioanl strength usually have an endurance element too, farmers walk with sandbags for example, are different to over head log press, is different to moving/rolling/dragging a large rock that is too heavy to lift, is different to squatting etc etc..
    rob

    #8
    Colin.A.
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 00:14:53 (permalink)
    Robert: To me absolute strength means simply lifting the largest amount of weight. I'm not saying my way is the "right" way or the "only" way of looking at it - but merely the way that makes sense to me.

    In your example I would say that the much heavier guy who lifts 1 pound more is indeed the stronger of the two. Now the lighter guy is much stronger "pound for pound", but for me that is a seperate measure and is not absolute strength.

    To look at another one of your examples:

    "guy of 150lb [me] can bench 100+kg
    guy of nearly 280lb [my friend tom aka pork chop] can bench 127.5kg

    are you honestly going to tell me you would consider him the stronger of the two???"


    Well - YES! He can bench 27.5kg more than you!

    Pound for pound you are stronger than he is, and whilst that is in its own way impressive, it doesnt matter much in the real world.

    LOL!!

    Dont you just hate it when while you are typing a post 2 other people post and the topic kind of moves on... I've just edited 2 posts of mine into one to try and make sense of them!

    To me functional strength is the only strength that matters. How big/small/short/tall you are does not matter - the only thing that matters is your ability to carry out the required task.






    #9
    suggy3001
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 00:35:44 (permalink)
    well I think that in regards to athletes as in the title strength/weight ratio is vital, and more important in most ways than absolute strength. depends wot kind of athlete of course.
    #10
    the block
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 00:39:40 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by JohnnyFive

    300,400,500 total is the beginning of what I would term 'strong'.



    are those figures for a 1 rep max or for many reps?
    #11
    Colin.A.
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 00:41:38 (permalink)
    I can see you guy's point of view - I guess my judgement is influenced by the fact that I've competed in two "power" sports, Shot Put and Strongman, and neither of them have weight classes. (except amateur strongman in the USA)

    Lets take your argument to its logical conclusion and have weight classes for all sports. If the GB team needs someone to run the 100 metres in the "Fat B@$tard" class at the Olympics then I'm your man!
    #12
    Skullder
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 03:57:12 (permalink)
    If you are talking about who is stronger when it comes to lifting up pieces of metal in a specific exercise, then the guy who lifts more is stronger, regardless of anything.

    Functional strength imo also varies from person to person. What you may consider functional may be non functional to someone else. Ex, you may want to have big strong legs so you can lift heavy loads of lumber, while a mountain climber will not want big stong legs weighing him down, but rather wants to be able to pull him and his equipment up with one arm.
    #13
    veganlifter
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 09:11:15 (permalink)
    guys, remember the thread AGES ago in the general section where Keiran was trying to formulate these? Of course there cannot be a perfect formula, but this is what he came up with and i'm gunning to get these as well:

    Squat - 2x bodyweight for 1
    Deadlift - 2.5x bodyweight for 1
    Overhead press - 1x bodyweight for 1
    Bench press - 1.5x bodyweight for 1
    Front squat - 1.5x bodyweight for 1
    Dips - Bodyweight plus 75% for 1
    Chins - bodyweight plus 50% for 1
    #14
    Robert
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 15:30:36 (permalink)
    colin A,

    i knew you would say that.. lol
    i think we will have to agree to disagree. [i also think we are both bias as you are heavy and i am light].

    vegan, what sort of "strong" would you say that those weights are for, strong/v.strong/beast??

    i would say they were average~strong TBH.

    i think the bw theory can only be applied to lean people, example:

    to say someone like glen ross is not strong is obviously not right, as i doubt he could chin with 200lb attched to him/dip with 300lb attcached to him, [cackles at thought]..

    but i see where your coming from if the person in question is not fat.

    what i mean is this:

    going by J5's idea of what "the beginnings of storng are"
    glen ross would be strong-beast, going by yours and mine idea of what strong is [multiples of bw] he would be a pu55y.

    personally i would like to [although i only weigh 150 now] weigh 180 in the next few years and be very lean

    all goals at 180lb bw and done by time i am 25 [20 now]
    dip+150%
    chin+100%
    dead 250kg
    squat 250kg
    bench 135kg
    overhead press [no leg drive] 135kg
    once these are completed i will focus soley on fight technique and convering my strength to speed and power via plyo's and oly lifting.

    what do you reckon the chances are of completing this task?
    rob
    #15
    Robert
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 16:13:58 (permalink)
    maybe i need to re-asses my goals then. TB i cannot imagine weighing 220, i could see a comprimise though 190-200lbs would be ok i suppose, and how about if i dropped the dead+squat to 230 or even 200?? and the dips to 100% and the chins to 75%??
    would that be more achiveable [well obviously yes, but much more so, or not?]
    your input is appreciated.
    rob

    #16
    drab4
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/08 18:02:31 (permalink)
    quote:
    I'm just speaking in a general sense, not trying to get complicated about things. If someone walks up to me in the street and tells me they can pull a 500lb dead and bench 300lbs I would say they are strong, I don't care if that person weighs 150lbs or 250lbs. They are at a level of strength that an average untrained person would find incomprehendable.
    I agree with that, I think in a similar way.
    #17
    bobster86
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/19 02:07:25 (permalink)
    Different sports need different kinds of strength, no point in a bodybuilder trying to work up to a 200kg power clean or a marathon runner trying to get a 200kg bench press(how many marathon runners would it take to bench 200Kg though?).
    I dont think i'm that strong with a 165Kg clean and jerk, 270Kg squat,120Kgx5 overhead squat, 260Kg-ish deadlift (never in the same year as each other) bodyweight about 105Kg.
    I only manage to PB in 1 lift each year (depends what i'm working on).
    I've been working on odd object lifting the past while though,gives good strength retention.
    If you want to know what a 'beast' is , look at the lifts of the old East German shotputter Udo Beyer (1976 oly champ).
    #18
    Knighty
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/19 07:39:20 (permalink)
    Do I smell Caz?
    #19
    PikeKing
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    RE: MT strengths targets for athletes? 2004/01/19 08:40:33 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert

    colin A,

    all goals at 180lb bw and done by time i am 25 [20 now]
    dip+150%
    chin+100%
    dead 250kg
    squat 250kg
    bench 135kg
    overhead press [no leg drive] 135kg
    once these are completed i will focus soley on fight technique and convering my strength to speed and power via plyo's and oly lifting.

    what do you reckon the chances are of completing this task?
    rob



    That overhead press target is pretty hardcore!
    #20
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