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Helpful ReplyPermanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users

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woolfy
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2005/12/30 18:03:13 (permalink)
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Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users

I have read many posts on damage to HPTA through using AAS on long cycles e.g. 12wks + but there seems to be little debate as to whether short cycles at high doses can result in HPTA damage. As we know the longer we suppress our bodies owns production of LHRH through the use of AAS the greater the risk of causing damage to our HPTA. However, I have found recently that through using 50mg Winstrol tabs and 40 mg Dbol per day over a five week period has resulted in the lowering of my bodies owns production of LHRH and test levels have been as low as 4.3 nmol/L. My body has shown few signs of recovery some 4.5 mths later and my Endocrinologist seems to think im destined for HRT.

I have used AAS on and off for 7 years with great effect using low does and giving myself plenty of rest between courses (12 wks+). I believe that over the years I have gradually damaged my HPTA and the last course which was abnormally high for me, finished the job. I seem to be at a point of no return and despite referring to published literature on the use of AAS I was never aware that I could cause permanent damage to my HPTA. There is plenty of literature relating to the obvious side affects such as acne through to liver disease but on the most important area, the brain, there is very little.

AAS use is definitely on the increase in the UK and speaking to up and coming BBS I have encountered numerous examples who are totally unaware that they can permanently damage their HPTA through the use of AAS and inhibit the bodies own production of LHRH, (which as we know is used to secrete LH which inevitably leads to the production of testosterone in the scrotum). I therefore note my findings as a warning to all AAS users in that every time we switch off our bodies production of testosterone we risk never being able to restore it back to normal levels after discontinued use of AAS and of course PCT.

I believe that more and more BBS using AAS over a reasonable period will end up on HRT for life and probably will never know the true side effects of using gear until its too late. Pouring hormones into our own body is a risky business and once we have damaged our own natural supply we cannot exactly slip a band aid over it and nurse it back to health like a sprained ankle.

Many young guys look up to professional bodybuilders as something to aim for and think if they can use AAS and get away with it then so can I. While I am not a doctor and have no evidence to support this theory it is my belief that many pros are where they are today, because their own bodies have superior genetics and can withstand the high androgenic abuse. Not all men are genetically the same hence why so many have fallen ill or even died because of steriods. I suggest that certain BBS should read up on HRT and its associated risks along with the affects of low testosterone and HPTA damage before considering their next cycle.

Low testosterone levels have had very damaging effects on both my personal and professional life and by producing this post I hope that some of you will learn and not have to go through the same problems as me.

Good Luck.
post edited by woolfy - 2005/12/30 18:06:55
#1
Valley Fitness
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 18:08:57 (permalink)
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This is a good post, thanks for sharing and respect to you for wanting to help others.

What type of "very damaging effects" have occured in your personal and professional life? If you don't mind me asking - if it's too personaly, I understand and no problem.
#2
user1000
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 18:10:41 (permalink)
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Hi wolfy, great post.

Out of interest what length cycles have you used on average?

Did you notice this gradual damage or did the results after the latest cycle take you by suprise?
#3
drab4
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 18:17:04 (permalink)
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Yep good post cheers Woolfy. Hope you end up recovering


My body has shown few signs of recovery some 4.5 mths later and my Endocrinologist seems to think im destined for HRT.
Yes they often tend to recommend HRT these days from what I've seen. I was offered it myself. 4 and a half months is a bit premature to be offering it though. Give it another 6 months at least before considering it IMO


I believe that over the years I have gradually damaged my HPTA and the last course which was abnormally high for me, finished the job.
Agree this seems quite likely


I seem to be at a point of no return
Not sure how you can tell that after such a short period of time off cycle? It may simply be that the damage you speak of will mean you take years to recover rather than months
#4
user1000
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 18:55:10 (permalink)
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Would it be true to say that if you get bloods done after each cycle, you are going to see problems like gradually developing and therefore able to avoid?
#5
Fina
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 20:50:29 (permalink)
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good post bro, should serve as a warning to all the newcomers jumping in at 10 stone
#6
woolfy
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 21:00:47 (permalink)
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In response to your questions:

On a professional basis I am no longer able to work and have been signed off by my GP. My energy levels are so low I sleep 12 hours per day and get tired very easily. Long term sick leave will not be good for my career nor is it financially viable.

On a personal level this has created big problems in my relationship. I am a different person with no drive for life or sex and indeed brought on all by myself. I have lost around 18 lbs in weight mostly muscle as I was very lean to begin with (8% BF yr round). A once admired physique which gained me alot of attention both inside and outside the gym has now gone and I look like a complete novice having lost years of hard work due to depleted test levels. Body fat levels have also shot up despite a careful diet and Im unable to get a 'pump' when I workout. Strength obviously declined with muscle loss. The change in hormones has brought on depression and paranoia. Right now the days seem like weeks with no idea as to when this problem will end.

Each course would last exactly 8 wks usually combining 2 or 3 steriods at a time such as Deca, Dbol, Test, Anavar, Restandol or Winstrol as well as ancillaries nolv and proviron. Injections no more than one a week of each and doses of around 25-35mg in tablet form per day. Full PCT applied after each course. I have never had acne from any course and believe that this is a sign that users have been on gear too long and that receptors have become clogged rendering the steriod less efficient at protein synthesis. However, acne maybe a personal thing and some may experience this regardless. Little experience of gyno due to correct dosing of ancillaries.

Over the last 2 years I began to notice a decline in libido and erections (morning glory) and I think that once your sex drive is diminishing whilst off gear its a good sign that problems are occuring. However, some gear will supress libido for longer so you need to be aware of full recovery times.

Regular blood tests when clean should show if your testosterone levels are gradually declining over time and this should link in with any changes in libido. Tests on all hormones affected by AAS should really be monitored to be safe. E.g. LH, FSH, T3, T4 and testosterone etc. Low LH and FSH is due to low LHRH which may have been affected by a HPTA disorder. My knowledge on blood work is not concise so you will need to investigate further. Internal organs such as liver, heart and maybe prostate could also be monitored.

#7
MattyG
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 21:04:54 (permalink)
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Surely a message to all Fina, not just the 10 stoners!!

I Jumped in at 13 stone but don't consider myself any different to someone 10 or 16 stone!!!

Damage can be done to anyone no matter the shape or size ....

Was thinking, how can you find out if you are actually affecting your HPTA before its too late? I've done 2 cycles and would like to know that im ok before carrying on any more.
#8
The Godfather
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 21:27:46 (permalink)
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sounds to me like you are just depressed man, give it a year or so then see where you T levels are,make sure you are getting plenty of EFA's and fruit and veg, a good diet is essential for optimum test levels, you could also look into fenugreek and trib along with other herbs which 'may' help with the situation, other options include proviron and hcg therapy, you are not at a point of no return at all, don't make things so hard on yourself!

if you don't mind me asking what are the exact 'damaging effects' of low test levels that you seem to be experiencing? also how many years have you been cycling in total, and when was it that you began to notice these problems?

good post none the less
#9
The Godfather
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 21:32:01 (permalink)
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just read your 2nd post, so no need to reanswer the questions in the above post, keep us updated if possible
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user1000
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 21:32:03 (permalink)
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ORIGINAL: woolfy

Regular blood tests when clean should show if your testosterone levels are gradually declining over time and this should link in with any changes in libido. Tests on all hormones affected by AAS should really be monitored to be safe. E.g. LH, FSH, T3, T4 and testosterone etc. Low LH and FSH is due to low LHRH which may have been affected by a HPTA disorder. My knowledge on blood work is not concise so you will need to investigate further. Internal organs such as liver, heart and maybe prostate could also be monitored.




I knew that it was a good idea to get blood tests done after each cycle, but personally I was going to leave it until 'later', a few cycles down the line (ever?).

Your post is a kick up the arse to me, now I can see how important blood tests are.

Extra thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
#11
Big_Ad
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/30 23:33:13 (permalink)
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Good posts.

In regards to this section:

I have never had acne from any course and believe that this is a sign that users have been on gear too long and that receptors have become clogged rendering the steriod less efficient at protein synthesis. However, acne maybe a personal thing and some may experience this regardless.

IMO - you either get acne or you dont. If you get acne, you will be prone to it depending on drugs/dosages used and IMO - nothing to do with "receptors being clogged up" or relating to less effecient protein synthesis.

My opinion of course.

It does sound like you are depressed. I know plenty about this, IMO just look at the negatives and try and correct them. Easier said than done I know. But if you have this little energy and overall very down - you can either just jump into HRT which will deffinately assist - or if you decide HRT is something you don't want to go for unless required, try doing a very long recovery course.

My opinion once again!
#12
teapot
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 01:37:55 (permalink)
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Hi Buddy.

Have you considered running some igf? I have read that igf is supposed to help with hpta recovery, along with the other muscle gaining, fat reducing properties. I will be running myself for pct in a week or two. Worth a shot I think?
#13
ihawk
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 02:10:10 (permalink)
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what are you actually doing now to try and restore natural test production? imo look into running hcg and nolva, i wont offer doses as it may differ in your particular circumstance, however imo using these drugs possobly in conjunction with clomid and zma could help.
#14
bbigman2000
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 05:28:41 (permalink)
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Yep you are right on most points except the acne.

One of the reasons why I always try and deter those under 30 from going on gear to soon.

I suspect your over 30 mate are you ? Unfortunatley for men its all a steady decline after that age !! In all resepcts.

I would be in the same boat as you if I decided to stop jucing.

I couldnt handle what you are going through, and would inevitably GO BACK ON !!

Since you have been off so long though, you should stick with it and try everything to get your testosterone ratio back up.

Sounds like you may have other issues non AS related to explore also.

#15
Fina
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 11:50:54 (permalink)
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MattyG, very true mate....

"anyone not fully prepared and researched" maybe I should have said ;)
#16
dazc
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 14:09:25 (permalink)
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your at the same place i was a couple of years ago mate, i think you posted a few questions to me in another thread as well. The feeling of having low test is not a pleasent one, and it really does affect all areas of your life.

It is quite possible that you will still recover yet, and certainly get back to a more normal test level, as already said its a little early to go onto hrt just yet.

This is one of the reasons i now use only 2 week cycles and get regular bloodwork done. Alot of the people on longer cycles simply dont realise that they never recover, as the long acting gear stays in your system at some level for alot longer than most realise and then they are back on, fooling themselves into thinking they were recovered! as with all things, not everyone is the same and some people will bounce straight back im sure, but that doesnt mean we all will!

Not that im saying you should try it or that its something you should do, but i used some hcg, alongside nolva and clomid, which seemed to get things going again. Im not gona post the doses etc, but ill say that it was on the high short dose end of the spectrum, not the long drawn out 500ius eod for 2 weeks that people use at the end of a cycle. But do your own research as their could be risks to the receptors

dazc
#17
woolfy
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 15:07:16 (permalink)
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In response to members questions regarding my current PCT

750iu HCG for 5 consecutive days restored my testicles to normal size, however, I may continue to inject HCG using 2 doses of 750iu every other month to stimulate testosterone production. However, I am reluctant to try more as it may affect the Leydigg cells etc

I have used clomid initially for 3 weeks post cycle using 100mg P/D for the 1st 10 days and 50mg P/D for the remainder.

I came off this and ran Tribulus.

I am now running Nolvadex intially 40mg for the first week and 20mg thereon. I intend to run this for 1 month before having my bloods done again. I have found that I generally feel better on Nolvadex than Clomid. My bouts of depression seem to have passed at the mo, possiably due to my increase in testosterone which now measures 22.2 mnol/L (average 31-95) but still way off.

I also take plenty of EFA's, vitamins, minerals etc - always have done regardless. Ginkgo Biloba also used to help stimulate blood supply to brain. Have run Tribulus throughout using low and high doses - not much affect to libido. ZMA also been used however I seemed to have trouble sleeping on this stuff - couldnt understand as suppossed to improve sleep patterns.

I will soon be trying Tonkat Ali with Tribulus and aim to include proviron at 50mg per day for the next 4 wks.

HGH is not an option at the moment. It is stated that HGH should not be used if patient has endocrine disease. I will soon be having a brain scan (MRI) to determine whether I have pituarity disease or a tumor. However, I am not suffering from any tumor related problems so fingers crossed.

Dr's are also going to perform hypo glycemic tests to determine bodies hormonal response (not very pleasent). HGH to be monitored for possiable deficiency. Pretty much all medical angles are being looked at. Ive had bloods tests for so many things and even a chest X-ray.

I was interested to read about IGF as a possiable aid for PCT. However, I cannot find any literature which supports that IGF can improve HPTA damage. If anyone has any good scientific info on this please post.

I generally felt ok and didnt loose to much size in the first 2 months post cycle but when I returned to work stress levels increased and I gradually got worse over the next 2 months (test levels dropped from 19.7 to 4.3). I now intend to take the next 2 months off and have bloods done at the end of each month. If no real improvement after that then I will consider HRT as it will be over 28 wks since cycle ended. I dont wont to sound to negative but even if I do make a recovery I doubt my test levels will return to previous level considering the damage. Therefore, I maybe better off on HRT since test levels will decline naturally over the next few years, but I'll give it some time first. I am also 32 yrs old and its a bit late for regrets but I enjoyed the ride and perhaps its time to get off. I wont touch gear again after this except if I end up of HRT, it doesnt seem worth it. Had I trained naturally I would definetly look better than I do now and have better health - this is the question BBS need to ask - is taking AAS really worth the risk.



#18
ihawk
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 16:19:01 (permalink)
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some mistakes in your above.
Dont run proviron as this will further shut down hpta
use of hcg should be concurrent with nolva Not on its own, i would try hcg at 500iu ed for 10 days along side nolva and clomid give that a go and repeat after 1 month if still no improvement, run the nolva/clomid i week beyond end of hcg use. try zinc on its own if you have problems with zma.
#19
maccer
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RE: Permanent HPTA Damage to AAS Users 2005/12/31 19:07:04 (permalink)
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ihawk mate no disrespect but there seems to be lots of people on american boards saying the oppoite bout proviron! many respected people have post studies showing that it does not shut you down??
#20
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